What qualifies someone to be called a classical composer?

[MrGongGong]

But it's not the same thing - you can't actually provide the music without spending decades listening to it yourself. (not to mention the neighbours) Whereas you can be made to grow grapes without ever being given the opportunity to taste one.

So I guess the musicians in courts and churches did all their rehearsals in their houses then ?

[Ian]

So I guess the musicians in courts and churches did all their rehearsals in their houses then ?

No, little Johannes was given his own room in the palace while he worked up his grades. There was always the off-chance he might eventually get to grade 8.

[french frank]

This has been nagging my subconcious for the past few days.

When I've heard teenagers talking about their Musics, they have no problem "fragmenting" the different styles that they listen to and/or avoid: Rap, Drum & Bass, Dub, Math(s) Rock, Gothic Grunge - they love being able to hear and identify the different genres.

[...]

And I wonder if that's the point: by lassooing such an enormous menagerie of styles into the single term "classical Music", it encourages the non-cognoscenti into thinking the words BeethovenTchaikovsky and imagining people playing violins whilst somebody sings in a noisy way. No wonder there is wide-spread confusion and hostility to the Music: it's perceived as a single, homogenized mush of sound. By not being specific, by being scared of putting off the non-cognoscenti with what we worry might be "elitist" terms, we put off the non-cognoscenti.

My immediate thought is, looking at the types of (youth) music you describe, 'where were they fifty years ago'? And where is 50s-style rock 'n' roll now? It's a different world and when styles fall out of fashion, they don't come back. Like jive, cha-cha-cha and twist: one moment Everybody's Doin' It, the next they're doin' something else. A fundamental characteristic of 'classical music' has been its longevity: composers, works, styles and, to a lesser extent, performers. People die, styles are superseded, but both live on in posterity: in the concert halls and in record sales. The repertoire expands. There's a fundamental difference in the way that succeeding generations view the works of their past.

If a label like 'classical music' is off-putting or intimidating to the public, considered as a 'mass', what exactly is the reason? Will a change in labels make any difference? Would things change if orchestras were casually dressed and audiences chewed sweets, drank coca-cola and chatted to their friends? I mean, like, would they?

In addition to pestering the BBC to make more programmes of and about these repertoires, I suggest the next best thing we can do for "classical Music" is to stop calling it "classical Music", but to make "19th Century Russian Nationalism", "Late Classicism", "Mediaeval Isorhythm" and "Post Serialism" as familiar as "Delft Pottery", "Dystopian Fiction", "Georgian" or "Arts & Crafts Movement".

'as familiar as "Delft Pottery", "Dystopian Fiction", "Georgian" or "Arts & Crafts Movement"...? Familiar to whom? Let's be really, really elitist - my experience of, say, the under 35s, is that what binds them, culturally, as a demographic, is popular music, cult TV/film/books and fashion clothes. The Here [sic] and Now.

The linguistic problem with changing the label 'classical music' is that (unlike where there was a category gap, such as that filled by 'world music') it's dictating that it should be dropped and its various constituent parts separately labelled, and considered along with, say, music theatre, film music, crossover: you have actually deprived people of describing a grouping which they understand (albeit that they may have disagreements about detail). Abolishing it to make them think along properly, prescribed lines is what I would call 'language fascism'. "You're mistaken in your thinking and we must guide you into a correct way of thinking about these subjects..."

[MrGongGong]

Abolishing it to make them think along properly, prescribed lines is what I would call 'language fascism'. "You're mistaken in your thinking and we must guide you into a correct way of thinking about these subjects..."

Some interesting thoughts Frenchie

However on a pragmatic note
I specifically avoid talking about "Classical" music when working with young people , not because I don't think its "cool" or some PC thing but for the very reason (which i've done to death i'm sure ) that when you use that word the word "boring" comes along in a few minutes. It's much better to talk about Orchestral music or even music from the Classical Period etc than to use a word which the vast majority of people (youngsters and adults) associate with boredom irrespective of the actual sound it makes............ given that many young people are fascinated and knowledgeable about the niches that music inhabits I have fond that it's easy to "get" the idea of Baroque music , for example, one calls it that and not use the C word.

ps> I don't think that Rap, Drum & Bass etc are "Youth" musics ....... they are often made (and enthused about ) by adults, the idea that somehow we "grow" out of "youth" music and finally enter into Valhalla is a bit of a myth ...... (take a look at the thread about Rock et al etc )

[french frank]

Some interesting thoughts Frenchie

However on a pragmatic note
I specifically avoid talking about "Classical" music when working with young people , not because I don't think its "cool" or some PC thing but for the very reason (which i've done to death i'm sure ) that when you use that word the word "boring" comes along in a few minutes. It's much better to talk about Orchestral music or even music from the Classical Period etc than to use a word which the vast majority of people (youngsters and adults) associate with boredom irrespective of the actual sound it makes............ given that many young people are fascinated and knowledgeable about the niches that music inhabits I have fond that it's easy to "get" the idea of Baroque music , for example, one calls it that and not use the C word.

ps> I don't think that Rap, Drum & Bass etc are "Youth" musics ....... they are often made (and enthused about ) by adults, the idea that somehow we "grow" out of "youth" music and finally enter into Valhalla is a bit of a myth ...... (take a look at the thread about Rock et al etc )

Although I feel perfectly comfortable, personally, with the label 'classical music', that only means that I have my concept of what it means - and it doesn't, for me, have any baggage of the sort that people describe. But I understand what that baggage is and why it can be off-putting. I don't, however, have any occasion to use the phrase other than among those who think the way I do; so no problem for me.

When I use 'youth', this introduces another fascinating area . What is 'youth'? The BBC recognises the demographic of 'middle youth' which probably goes up to ... we-e-e-ll ... 45 at least. It seems to be a cultural term, rather than an age grouping, and refers perhaps to the post war generations who 'consumed' the popular 'mass' music (aimed at youth) as the dominant one of their own youth and which was a musical mainstream which they remained with, regardless of whether they are now 60/50, or 40: they are in the same wide musical 'mass' as those of 30 and 20. They may or may not have had a 'classical' upbringing in being from a home where classical music was played, and perhaps was the parents' choice. They may or may not have a strong interest in both streams. For those generations, the youth/popular music of their youth and of this generation remains a valid one.

My (over) sensitivity about the deliberate alteration of language usage (rather than natural evolution) stems from an awareness of the way language can be used to manipulate thinking. This may be with the best of intentions and for the best of reasons (the way that racist terms which were once common are now taboo, for example). But I would need to hear rock (no pun intended) solid reasons as to what is beneficial about dropping the term 'classical music' and what usages are proposed in the various contexts.

[Ian]

And where is 50s-style rock 'n' roll now?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=rock+%27n+roll&x=0&y=0

for starters.

Rather annoyingly my local paper, the Inimitable Penarth Times, can't seem to miss a week without a plug, complete with period dress photo, of this or that local Rock 'n Roll band playing at the Paget Rooms - once they have cleared away bring and buy stalls.

edit: I don't believe it: I've just been asked, completely out of the blue, whether I fancy going to jive classes!!

[french frank]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_...n+roll&x=0&y=0

for starters.

my local paper, the Inimitable Penarth Times, can't seem to miss a week without a plug, complete with period dress photo, of this or that local Rock 'n Roll band playing at the Paget Rooms - once they have cleared away bring and buy stalls.

So the answer is: alive and well in Penarth?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

'as familiar as "Delft Pottery", "Dystopian Fiction", "Georgian" or "Arts & Crafts Movement"...? Familiar to whom?

To the same audiences who watch Waldemar Janusczek, Michael Wood, Lucy Worsley, Andrew Graham Dixon, The Antiques Roadshow, Dan Cruickshank, Bargain Hunt ... This is the audience (and it includes a number of under-35s - maybe even some of those in your "experience") that could be turned on to the Musics of the middle ages, the Enlightenment, the Romantics, the early 20th Century - the audience who, whilst fascinated by the Art, Literature, Architecture, and History of the times, at the moment, are turned off by "classical Music".

The linguistic problem with changing the label 'classical music' is that (unlike where there was a category gap, such as that filled by 'world music') it's dictating that it should be dropped and its various constituent parts separately labelled, and considered along with, say, music theatre, film music, crossover: you have actually deprived people of describing a grouping which they understand (albeit that they may have disagreements about detail). Abolishing it to make them think along properly, prescribed lines is what I would call 'language fascism'. "You're mistaken in your thinking and we must guide you into a correct way of thinking about these subjects..."

You've misunderstood my previous post, big time, frenchie - and, if I'm right, what the "problem" with getting these Musics known and loved is. I suspect that "they" don't understand what the grouping under "classical" Music is. There are merely prejudices and preconceptions (except in the already "converted") because the term "classical Music" is so nebulous. My idea is that, once the general audience who've seen programmes on Minton pottery/William Morris/Shakespeare/Charles Rene MacIntosh, and who have no problem differentiating the cultural "movements" behind this work, get the idea that Classical/Late Romantic/Renaissance/Neo-Classicism/Serial Music is as rich as those art forms, then will there be real enthusiasm for the repertoire.

To say to somebody, "You've managed to grasp the concept of the Post-Impressionists, Surrealists, and Art Noveau, but you can't possibly cope with equivalent movements in Music, so just call it 'classical Music' and we'll know what you mean" is, I would suggest, the sort of patronizing attitude that makes potentially interested people so hostile to the whole idea of the Musics.

[Ian]

My (over) sensitivity about the deliberate alteration of language usage (rather than natural evolution) stems from an awareness of the way language can be used to manipulate thinking.

exactly, so surely it's important to get it right. And that can only mean striving for interpretations that are consistent, logical, and neutral.

[Ian]

So the answer is: alive and well in Penarth?

we are a broad minded lot in Penarth. We like both types of music - Rock and Roll.

I've got it on good authority that those amazon links are only available to IP addresses in Penarth.

[MrGongGong]

exactly, so surely it's important to get it right. And that can only mean striving for interpretations that are consistent, logical, and neutral.

Its hard to be "neutral" when the majority of people think that what you are talking about is something other than what it is (if that makes sense ?)........

[Ian]

To the same audiences who watch Waldemar Janusczek, Michael Wood, Lucy Worsley, Andrew Graham Dixon, The Antiques Roadshow, Dan Cruickshank, Bargain Hunt ... This is the audience (and it includes a number of under-35s - maybe even some of those in your "experience") that could be turned on to the Musics of the middle ages, the Enlightenment, the Romantics, the early 20th Century - the audience who, whilst fascinated by the Art, Literature, Architecture, and History of the times, at the moment, are turned off by "classical Music".

I think classical music (or whatever you want to call it) suffers in our visual-media driven age by not being particularly visually stimulating - It's not often not a 'good look'
These days TV has to look good above all else.

[amateur51]

Some interesting thoughts Frenchie

However on a pragmatic note
I specifically avoid talking about "Classical" music when working with young people , not because I don't think its "cool" or some PC thing but for the very reason (which i've done to death i'm sure ) that when you use that word the word "boring" comes along in a few minutes. It's much better to talk about Orchestral music or even music from the Classical Period etc than to use a word which the vast majority of people (youngsters and adults) associate with boredom irrespective of the actual sound it makes............ given that many young people are fascinated and knowledgeable about the niches that music inhabits I have fond that it's easy to "get" the idea of Baroque music , for example, one calls it that and not use the C word.

ps> I don't think that Rap, Drum & Bass etc are "Youth" musics ....... they are often made (and enthused about ) by adults, the idea that somehow we "grow" out of "youth" music and finally enter into Valhalla is a bit of a myth ...... (take a look at the thread about Rock et al etc )

Fairly recently I was at an orchestral concert at the Royal Festival Hall where there was a significant party of 'ordinary' 16-18 year-olds sitting behind me in the cheap seats.

Being the age I am, I worried about their being noisy & disruptive but all I heard were noises & positive comments of appreciation, particularly after The Rite of Spring "Man I never knew it was so LOUD!" sorta thing

At the end I turned round for a chat & discovered that they'd really enjoyed it and that they'd come again

[Ian]

Its hard to be "neutral" when the majority of people think that what you are talking about is something other than what it is (if that makes sense ?)........

It does. But I'm not saying it's going to be easy. Just look what happens when you put some well-meaning enthusiasts together.... Now imagine those cold dark streets.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I think classical music (or whatever you want to call it) suffers in our visual-media driven age by not being particularly visually stimulating - It's not often not a 'good look'
These days TV has to look good above all else.

... oh for a courageous Producer with vision instead of image!