What qualifies someone to be called a classical composer?

[MrGongGong]

prob

well it's Indian classical music - whether it constitutes a genre that falls easily under the classical umbrella I don't know. Yes I do - Probably yes.

Was there a time when Indian music was more closely associated with pop music - 60s. My impression is that it is more closely associated with classical now. but it's not a genre of music i follow, so I would be interested in your thoughts.

eeer

India is very big
there are many musics
some are "Classical" some not

I would recommend having a bit more of a wider view before attempting definitions .........


Gagaku IS classical music
Onkyo isn't classical music (both lower and UPPERCASE)



and Gamelan Gong Kebyar is both a popular and a "Classical" music tradition (though it's not as old as Bach)

[Ian]

I think your understanding is wrong i'm afraid .......... I think (note THINK) that in the musicology I learnt as an undergraduate the term "Classical" (when not specifically talking about the Classical Period) refers to music that had a historical link to certain types of formalised performance. So Javanese court gamelan is Classical music as is the North Indian raga tradition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindustani_Classical_Music)

If one only thinks in terms of "marketing" then one misses out much.............

You might be right (but I don't think you are) I will do a look up - but actually, either way it make little difference.

Happily, I don't know anyone who only thinks in terms of marketing.

[MrGongGong]

You might be right (but I don't think you are) I will do a look up - but actually, either way it make little difference.

Happily, I don't know anyone who only thinks in terms of marketing.

Yes it makes a big difference actually
and all depends on WHERE you "look it up"

You said this

"BTW, surely all labels have a marketing function - what other function can they have?"

I would suggest that there are many other functions both ones we have thought of and others ..........

[french frank]

Yes, his concerto, follows enough of ‘classical’ norms regarding structure and instrumentation for you to be happy. But then so do the songs!

What specifically classical norms do the songs follow? Would you call them art songs? The criterion that they are not usually 'part of a staged work (such as an opera or a musical)' might rule Gershwin and Porter out.

This business about self-orchestrating seems a bit of a flimsy notion, though.

There wasn't any 'business' - I was simply pointing out that he did orchestrate it. The point was that it was orchestrated (by Gershwin) for a traditional symphony orchestra, not a jazz band.

I guess that because it is well known that film composers and pop musicians do not always orchestrate their own music, and because you want to exclude film and pop from standing with various other genres that constitute classical music you choose to make orchestration a deal-breaker.

You're telling me what you think I'm saying: the 'self-orchestration' was a parenthesis to pointing out that it was a) a piano concerto, which is an established classical form and that additionally b) although it might be called 'jazzy' it was orchestrated for symphony orchestra. There's no 'deal-breaker', though the self-orchestration merely underlines Gershwin's intention that it should be a concert hall work with symphonic orchestration.

But that isn't a 'deal-breaker' either.

The problem with this is you would have to chuck out the version of Pictures at an Exhibition that most people know

Chuck it out where? By saying it was by Ravel? Couldn't it be a classical work by Mussorgsky and Ravel? Anyway, as I said - that wasn't an issue.


[It's like arm-wrestling, isn't it? ]

[Ian]

eeer

India is very big
there are many musics
some are "Classical" some not

I would recommend having a bit more of a wider view before attempting definitions .........


Gagaku IS classical music
Onkyo isn't classical music (both lower and UPPERCASE)



and Gamelan Gong Kebyar is both a popular and a "Classical" music tradition (though it's not as old as Bach)

Very interesting, but surely the context makes it reasonable for me to place Indian music (of any type) in the context of Western perspective.

You can ask the same question about Scottish bagpipe music - where there are in effect 'classical' traditions and 'popular' traditions - and, no doubt hundreds of other traditions small and large - but it doesn't really have much of a bearing on discussing the meaning and concept of 'classical' within the Western tradition - unless they come to have some kind of 'critical mass' working relationship - which from time to time they might well do.

[french frank]

I think your understanding is wrong i'm afraid .......... I think (note THINK) that in the musicology I learnt as an undergraduate the term "Classical" (when not specifically talking about the Classical Period) refers to music that had a historical link to certain types of formalised performance. So Javanese court gamelan is Classical music as is the North Indian raga tradition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindustani_Classical_Music)

My understanding was that classical music - no matter what the tradition - was composed/performed for a social and educated elite: court music, for example. I suspect this is what some people feel instinctively about Western classical music and why they think of it as 'elitist' - regardless of the fact that the context in which it is performed is now quite different.

That was the sense in which it was distinct from the music of the people - folk music.

[Ian]

Yes it makes a big difference actually
and all depends on WHERE you "look it up"

You said this

"BTW, surely all labels have a marketing function - what other function can they have?"

I would suggest that there are many other functions both ones we have thought of and others ..........

I think I was in the mood of differentiating between the label itself and the music the label represents.

Someone writes a piece of music. That person or someone else says it's 'happy neo-contrapuntal hardcore'

What purpose has that (or any other label) have except to 'market' the piece?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Someone writes a piece of music. That person or someone else says it's 'happy neo-contrapuntal hardcore'
What purpose has that (or any other label) have except to 'market' the piece?

To put into a context. If someone says they have written a piece of Music, I can have no way of knowing what it might sound like. If they put it within a "family" of other works (a genre) with which it has similarities, I have a better idea what to expect.

[Boilk]

Kraftwerk were electronically innovative but are not seen as classical like Varese.

I can't think of a single thing that Kraftwerk can take the credit for as innovators. Imitators with mass appeal who kept an eye on the innovators, more like.

And come to think of it, their harmonic palette was decidedly bland for the time.

[Ian]

What specifically classical norms do the songs follow? Would you call them art songs? The criterion that they are not usually 'part of a staged work (such as an opera or a musical)' might rule Gershwin and Porter out.

I would call them show songs, in the same way that I might call other songs 'operatic' 'arias' 'lieder' 'troubadour' 'songs without words' (not really!)

They are certainly not folksongs - we are talking about music written by professional composers for a paying audience - just like classical music! The question to what extent we as individuals accept show-songs as part of the classical family, in the same way we can accept operatic songs as being part of that family, is hardly relevant given what is actually happening.

I've got to go now and annoy people at my local pub quiz (i'm really hoping we'll get a question on indian classical music)

[Ian]

To put into a context. If someone says they have written a piece of Music, I can have no way of knowing what it might sound like. If they put it within a "family" of other works (a genre) with which it has similarities, I have a better idea what to expect.

That's what marketing is.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

That's what marketing is.

No; it's communication.

[Ian]

No; it's communication.

Indeed - the most important part of marketing.

you might be confusing marketing with promotion.

[MrGongGong]

Very interesting, but surely the context makes it reasonable for me to place Indian music (of any type) in the context of Western perspective.

No
When I read your initial question I didn't assume you just meant in the Western Classical Tradition

My understanding was that classical music - no matter what the tradition - was composed/performed for a social and educated elite: court music, for example. I suspect this is what some people feel instinctively about Western classical music and why they think of it as 'elitist' - regardless of the fact that the context in which it is performed is now quite different.

That was the sense in which it was distinct from the music of the people - folk music.

indeed

I can't think of a single thing that Kraftwerk can take the credit for as innovators. Imitators with mass appeal who kept an eye on the innovators, more like.

And come to think of it, their harmonic palette was decidedly bland for the time.

Use of drum triggers
use of samples in a non electroacoustic context
and so on ...............

what on earth has the harmonic palette got to do with it ?
that's like complaining that Status Quo only use three chords (apart from in the crap song ..........)

[Serial_Apologist]

No
When I read your initial question I didn't assume you just meant in the Western Classical Tradition




indeed



Use of drum triggers
use of samples in a non electroacoustic context
and so on ...............

what on earth has the harmonic palette got to do with it ?
that's like complaining that Status Quo only use three chords (apart from in the crap song ..........)

Seargeant Pepper? (And probbly a few others from the '66-'67 era, tho I'm not that up on this particular subject)