EU discussion

[french frank]

It is interesting that you say the eu is "quite different from" the old USSR as my Russian wife says that is exactly what it is like!

What I meant, in contrasting the EU with the major powers of the US, China and the USSR, was that the EU is a large (voluntary) cooperative coming together of sovereign states. I don't see the EU exercising a coercive power like the communist USSR over its constituent states: Europe is much more politically diverse, not totalitarian.

In the same belief that decisions should be taken at 'the lowest appropriate level', I would favour a federal Europe. But my concept of that doesn't include the grabbing of powers by the highest possible authority - 'federal' as Germany and Switzerland are federations (and unlike the UK!).

[Beef Oven]

I beg your pardon?

Yellow monster. in this context, a voracious economic threat from China. You may may have noticed that where we are on the pink side of 'white', Chinese people tend to be on the 'yellow' side.

[Beef Oven]

Again, I do accept this and have already stated that my use of the term "one-trick pony" might be something of an exaggeration these days, but UKIP nevertheless remains alone among UK political parties in wanting UK out of EU; if it were in government, would it simply withdraw UK from EU or would it put ito the the electorate in the form of a referendum? Has it given sufficient consideration to the effect of UK possibly being sued for breach of contract were it unilaterally to sever its ties therewith?

The UKIP fights general elections on the promise of withdrawa - not a referendum.

Compared to what is going on in the EU these days, any technicalities associated with withdrawal would not be a big deal.

[amateur51]

Yellow monster. in this context, a voracious economic threat from China. You may may have noticed that where we are on the pink side of 'white', Chinese people tend to be on the 'yellow' side.

"we"?!

[Beef Oven]

"we"?!

yes, 'we'. I got a grand that says your a white bloke.

P.S. or a white woman

[Lateralthinking1]

Let's talk shapes. UKIP says it is a line. A basic tug of war. That's the public line.

I say the "call a spade a spade" Mr Farage sees it as a triangle. His EU is the middle man. Cut that out and you get the line he wants. A one way first class ticket of your power and mine to Chief Executives of multinationals and local authorities.

It would be an efficiency saving. I grant him that.

[amateur51]

yes, 'we'. I got a grand that says your a white bloke.

P.S. or a white woman

A grand what?!

And what's your point caller?

My point is that describing a nation as 'yellow' is a bit ... well you know better, I hope

[Beef Oven]

A grand what?!

And what's your point caller?

My point is that describing a nation as 'yellow' is a bit ... well you know better, I hope

1) a 'grand' as in a fazan quid!

2) you should hear what they call us (ever been there?)

3) Us, as in people like you and me (in response to your next question)

4) Yes, I do know better, but there are enough parents in here should any of us get naughty

[Beef Oven]

yes, i agree that it has done that, but opinion polls have never been as important as general election results and, until such time as ukip can form an overall majority government, it's still pretty much on the outside.


That's as may be, but all parties in government in uk have given us a framework within which the balance of what's decided in whitehall by unelected people and what's decided in westminster by elected ones arguably leaves rather too much to be desired, on the basis of recognition of which fact i remain to be convinced that, for example, the european parliament is noticeably less "democratic" than the british one.


Again, i do accept this and have already stated that my use of the term "one-trick pony" might be something of an exaggeration these days, but ukip nevertheless remains alone among uk political parties in wanting uk out of eu; if it were in government, would it simply withdraw uk from eu or would it put ito the the electorate in the form of a referendum? Has it given sufficient consideration to the effect of uk possibly being sued for breach of contract were it unilaterally to sever its ties therewith?

can anyone tell me how to reply with multi-quotes?

[ahinton]

It is an optimistic assumption that elected politicians would choose to retain the powers they managed to seize back from the EU. There is considerable evidence that even now their basic instinct is to give as many democratic powers away as possible.

- The Localism Bill. Huge powers handed to Council officials who will find it easy to ignore the representations of local councillors. Once it is established, don't bother asking your MP to take matters up with Ministers. Ministers won't want to know.

- Sub-contracts everywhere. Try going on "the accountability journey" - "Oh no it isn't the Minister, try Network Rail, oh no it isn't Network Rail, it is Transport for London, oh no sorry it isn't TfL it is the Mayor, oh no did someone say it was Boris, no, you need to contact Southern Railways". In terms of nearly everything anyone tries to do, that is a pretty typical example.

It is everywhere. A4E as they were; Capita; you name it. UKIP want more of that; so do the Lab, Con, and Lib Dem parties. Green and Respect would probably do the same.

More power for Britain doesn't mean more Power to the People. That disappeared long before John Lennon.

And the Parliament you see on the HP sauce bottle is a myth. Irrespective of EU membership, it is becoming more so by the day.

I wish that some of the above is wrong. Sadly, it isn't, which rather serves to support my point about the true differences in levels of practical democracy between the European Parliament and our own internal arrangements within UK being rather less than some of those opposed to UK's continued EU membership might try to have us believe.

[amateur51]

1) a 'grand' as in a fazan quid!

2) you should hear what they call us (ever been there?)

3) Us, as in people like you and me (in response to your next question)

4) Yes, I do know better, but there are enough parents in here should any of us get naughty

Re 2) is that UKIP talking? I think it might well be

[Beef Oven]

I wish that some of the above is wrong. Sadly, it isn't, which rather serves to support my point about the true differences in levels of practical democracy between the European Parliament and our own internal arrangements within UK being rather less than some of those opposed to UK's continued EU membership might try to have us believe.

Don't fall into the two wrongs make a right trap

[Beef Oven]

Re 2) is that UKIP talking? I think it might well be

No, two was a joke. You just didn't get it because it contained no humour, wit, pathos, delivery, timing, irony etc etc

[ahinton]

The UKIP fights general elections on the promise of withdrawa - not a referendum.

Precisely! So it wouldn't matter what the electorate as a whole thought, it would only matter what UKIP thinks; one cannot expectg to have referenda on many policies, of course - that would be too impractical, expensive and unwieldy for words - but on so major a constitutional an issue as withdrawal from EU, a referendum would be essential, I think.

Compared to what is going on in the EU these days, any technicalities associated with withdrawal would not be a big deal.

Assuming this to be a respnse to my legal question, the extent to which it might be a "big deal" will be known soon enough once the charges are submitted to UK's government; to suggest that these would be minor sounds quite remarkably naïve and cloud-cockoo-ish to me. I wouldn't much fancy our chances against a massive bunch of determined and vociferous EU lawyers, frankly!

[ahinton]

Don't fall into the two wrongs make a right trap

I haven't and, of course, they don't, but that's hardly pertinent to what I wrote, which was simply to point up the fact that we no more have a perfect and perfectly democratic governmental structure in UK than EU as a whole has a fascist totalitarian one.