EU discussion

[Beef Oven]

the rest of humanity I guess ......?



I thought that WAS the show ?
The whole show

No, there's more to it than that. Not easy this politics and economics malarkey. Best left to those experienced and qualified - although that doesn't stop anyone in here throwing their living-room thinking at us

P.S. could've been the kitchen, it was 38 years ago!

[Bryn]

No, there's more to it than that. Not easy this politics and economics malarkey. Best left to those experienced and qualified - although that doesn't stop anyone in here throwing their living-room thinking at us

Certainly has not stopped you kipper folk.

[Beef Oven]

Certainly has not stopped you kipper folk.

You see- you do value democracy!!!

So get onboard Bryn, help us get rid of those anti-democratic fascists in the EU.

Last time Europe faced the threat of anti-democratic fascists, we were a little slow out of the blocks, but we got there in the end. Let's get on with the job quicker this time.

[MrGongGong]

I'm not entirely sure who 'they' are, but I try not to confuse politics with moral conviction, Mr GG .... the two have very little in common.

Of course, one should never act morally ........ where's the bit in your bible about selling arms to dodgy regimes ?

Hmm. Empty vessels, eh?

If it was like this then

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrBeL7lzbP0

No, there's more to it than that.

Of course there's the rest of the Basil Fawlty way....... it's like a kind of Zen with red faces of outrage

Certainly has not stopped you kipper folk.

but not the Craster ones as they have the taint of the EU protection .............

So get onboard Bryn, help us get rid of those anti-democratic fascists in the EU.
:

Surely that should read

So get onboard Bryn, help us get rid of those anti-democratic fascists in the house of Lords, Windsor Castle, Coalition.
:

[Bryn]

You kippers are really on the ball, that's for sure. Now, help me out here, are there 11 or 13 UKIP MEPs. I ask because the West Midlands lot claim there are 11 in all, whereas North East bunch reckon on 13. Such professionalism.

[amateur51]

I'm going to Chris's funeral today and shall be away all day.

This is prior notification that I shall probably close this thread temporarily to avoid having to deal with problems when I get back.

Thank you .....

Oh! Only temporarily?

Have a good day, french frank - hope it goes well!

[Beef Oven]

You kippers are really on the ball, that's for sure. Now, help me out here, are there 11 or 13 UKIP MEPs. I ask because the West Midlands lot claim there are 11 in all, whereas North East bunch reckon on 13. Such professionalism.

Damn! What can we say to that? I never saw that one coming. Where's he gonna go next with this?


We've bitten off more than we can chew with this Bryn fellah

[MrGongGong]

I'm going to Chris's funeral today and shall be away all day.

This is prior notification that I shall probably close this thread temporarily to avoid having to deal with problems when I get back.

Thank you .....

Have a good ? day
and hope it goes well

i'm off to Arbroath which is where we all started

[french frank]

Oh! Only temporarily?

Have a good day, french frank - hope it goes well!

Thanks, am51

As pre-announced, this discussion is now in abeyance until this evening. And if anyone has the idea of restarting it elsewhere on the forum ... don't, please.




I'm reopening this thread without much enthusiasm. It doesn't seem to progress much beyond one side attcking the fascist EU and demanding an In-Or-Out referendum and the other side jeering at them.

I'll give the discussion a chance to improve; if it doesn't it can continue in Diversions,

[scottycelt]

I was actually rather enjoying this thread, ff ...

I apologise for any perceived 'jeering' on my part, though some of us might prefer to use the word 'mocking' ...

[James Wonnacott]

FF has a point.
Beef, MrP and I will never convince MrGG and Bryn that we are right. Neither will they convince us that they are right.
Surely we do this not for our own satisfaction but to sway the minds of the undecided or "floaters" who may be reading this.
All we will achieve by hurling insults is to assure them that we are all fanatics of one kind or another and not worth the space we write upon?

Let reasoned argument ensue, please

[Beef Oven]

FF has a point.
Beef, MrP and I will never convince MrGG and Bryn that we are right. Neither will they convince us that they are right.
Surely we do this not for our own satisfaction but to sway the minds of the undecided or "floaters" who may be reading this.
All we will achieve by hurling insults is to assure them that we are all fanatics of one kind or another and not worth the space we write upon?

Let reasoned argument ensue, please

They know wer're right

[ahinton]

FF has a point.
Beef, MrP and I will never convince MrGG and Bryn that we are right. Neither will they convince us that they are right.
Surely we do this not for our own satisfaction but to sway the minds of the undecided or "floaters" who may be reading this.
All we will achieve by hurling insults is to assure them that we are all fanatics of one kind or another and not worth the space we write upon?

Let reasoned argument ensue, please

Indeed. Presenting all of this kind of stuff as though everything was in black and white does no one any favours in any case. The history, operation and future of EU and the Eurozone is something of such complexity as to make it impossible to reduce it all to a handful of clichés and bald, over-simplistic statements. That said, there can be little doubt that, whatever state either is in now, the entire edifice originally grew out of the fallout of WWII and the only truly grave war in Western Europe since then has taken place in what was once Yugoslavia and which is now a group of smaller nations of which only one has since become an EU member; if any good has come of EU, therefore, it is perhaps that the Churchillian ideal that there would be no more war in Western Europe has largely played out as intended - so far, at any rate.

You sign off "I have no doubt, the only way is out" - a simple statement on what is nevertheless a far from simple matter.

Whilst I presume that you refer here specifically to UK and its EU membership, do you at the same time advocate the continued existence (and perhaps expansion) of a UK-less EU, to the extent that you would not say for any other EU nation that "the only way is out"?

Do you think that a plain and simple "in or out" referendum on UK's continued membership of EU that were to result in its withdrawal from EU would act as another destabilising factor for EU?

What do you suppose the economic consequences for UK would be if it left EU?

What do you suppose the economic consequences of UK quitting EU would be for the economies of the remainder of EU and how might you suppose that this would affect UK?

What if such a referendum had yet to be held by the time UK fragments into four separate nations (which may happen)? - would you either advocate or anticipate that each of the four would then have to decide whether or not to hold its own separate referendum on whether or not to remain within EU?

These are only some factors to be considered when the topic of UK's continued membership of EU is raised. Trading insults and assuming obdurate, simplistic and dogmatic stances do no one - or the topic itself - any favours. We know that UKIP has its principal agenda without which its continued existence would be severely compromised, so if such a referendum were to go against the thrust of its main policy, the party would be seriously damaged as a consequence. It is also very much a minority party with few representatives in government and few voting supporters; it is only right in the interests of balance and pragmatism to recognise these facts, however unpleasant that may be for those who do support UKIP.

It might be a good idea to hold such a referendum if only for the purpose of disposing of some of the arguments that get tossed around this subject, were it not for the fact that, whichever way it goes, some people would still continue to argue against whatever the post-referendum status quo might be...

[french frank]

One point is that Platform 3 is intended for Radio 3 listeners who want to discuss other matters. I don't want it to become a mini-propaganda platform that attracts all-comers. Think of a certain string quartet whose appearance triggered disruption. The discussion here attracted a 'professional' apologist and the thread then took over and generated very ill-natured exchanges. I'm happy for James to lead a debate but since it is a controversial subject I would ask people to change the 'slogan signatures' once the debate is - for whatever reason - closed.

Remember that 'jokes' against the opposition are not jokes!

I'm closing the thread so that people can study what I've said before diving in again. Open in a few minutes.


ADD: I've change the subject title - this was hived off from a different discussion and I didn't realise the title would be quite so recognisable

[James Wonnacott]

One point is that Platform 3 is intended for Radio 3 listeners who want to discuss other matters. I don't want it to become a mini-propaganda platform that attracts all-comers. Think of a certain string quartet whose appearance triggered disruption. The discussion here attracted a 'professional' apologist and the thread then took over and generated very ill-natured exchanges. I'm happy for James to lead a debate but since it is a controversial subject I would ask people to change the 'slogan signatures' once the debate is - for whatever reason - closed.

Remember that 'jokes' against the opposition are not jokes!

I'm closing the thread so that people can study what I've said before diving in again. Open in a few minutes.


ADD: I've change the subject title - this was hived off from a different discussion and I didn't realise the title would be quite so recognisable

Thanks FF, not sure I'm qualified to "lead" the debate as I obviously hold very strong views on the subject, but I do share your stance on throwing insults as this gains nothing and could bring the forum into disrepute.

Please, both sides, let's have a reasoned, good humoured debate.