EU discussion

[Beef Oven]

Precisely! So it wouldn't matter what the electorate as a whole thought, it would only matter what UKIP thinks; one cannot expectg to have referenda on many policies, of course - that would be too impractical, expensive and unwieldy for words - but on so major a constitutional an issue as withdrawal from EU, a referendum would be essential, I think.


Assuming this to be a respnse to my legal question, the extent to which it might be a "big deal" will be known soon enough once the charges are submitted to UK's government; to suggest that these would be minor sounds quite remarkably naïve and cloud-cockoo-ish to me. I wouldn't much fancy our chances against a massive bunch of determined and vociferous EU lawyers, frankly!

Actually, because UKIP put it to the electorate directly in a general election, it means that it is about what the eloctorate thinks. That's what general elections are for.

Regarding your 'legal' question, my point is compared to what is going on in the EU these days, particularly the Eurozone, any technicalities or legal matters will be a stroll in the park by comparison.

P.S. would you be kind enough to point me in the right direction for finding out how to reply with multi-quotes?

[Beef Oven]

I haven't and, of course, they don't, but that's hardly pertinent to what I wrote, which was simply to point up the fact that we no more have a perfect and perfectly democratic governmental structure in UK than EU as a whole has a fascist totalitarian one.

I do not have a very positive view of the British Government (and I have not respected a leader since Harold Wilson or Mrs T), but at least it is not fascist, which is the only way I can describe the EU leaders.

[Lateralthinking1]

I have more than a little sympathy for the idea that the EU is becoming dictatorial in regard to, say, Greece. If a company saturates the airwaves with commercials for a toy with poisonous paint, it has to take much of the responsibility when children die, whatever the instructions in small print on the box.

Of even more interest is the enigmatic quality of the EU. I reckon I'm fairly political. Many people on this website are. How many EU bigwigs or even MEPs from Britain can you name? How many from other European countries? Got to five yet? You are doing brilliantly well. Why isn't there almost as much coverage of EU business in the media as of Government business, other than when it comes to crisis and sensationalism? Is it little wonder David Icke's conspiracy theories "sell big" in the Academy, Brixton?

Additionally, there is the matter of salaries and perks. The Kinnock Factor - and yet what we know is that he was just the tip of the iceberg. Allegedly the left don't want huge inequalities and the right want "common sense" payments in the public sector. How on earth is it the case with such a consensus that such things continue? It just doesn't make any sense.

Similarly, if there is to be a EU, those on both the left and the right have been saying for decades that they want the MEPs to have more power. They are, at least, democratically elected. There is hardly anyone who argues that there shouldn't as a minimum requirement be root and branch reform and I can't for the life of me see why they don't just get on and do it.

In short, I can't vote to leave something that is virtually a stranger but don't feel at all happy with it as it behaves in the home.

[ahinton]

Actually, because UKIP put it to the electorate directly in a general election, it means that it is about what the eloctorate thinks. That's what general elections are for.

Fair comment, of course, except that, since we all know in advance that UK's withdrawal from EU would form the cornerstone of UKIP's election manifesto, it's most unlikely to attract the votes that it would require in order to enable it to form an overall majority government that could then try to proceed with implementing such withdrawal, so that would be a non-starter; on the other hand, were the present government decide to od yet another U-turn and hold a referendum on this before the next General Election (which is not due for a further three years) and the result goes against withdrawal, there would seem to be little point and even less likelihood of credibility, let alone success, in and arising from continued determination on UKIP's part to maintain that policy as part of a future General Election manifesto, as much of such wind as it currently has in its sails would thereby have been taken out.

Regarding your 'legal' question, my point is compared to what is going on in the EU these days, particularly the Eurozone, any technicalities or legal matters will be a stroll in the park by comparison.

Maybe so, but it would still be pretty devastating to a nation already suffering the current economic woes compounded by new ones arising directly from having withdrawn from EU!

P.S. would you be kind enough to point me in the right direction for finding out how to reply with multi-quotes?

If you mean how to quote from different posts in a single post, I must admit to ignorance in being unable to do this myself! Sorry.

[ahinton]

I do not have a very positive view of the British Government (and I have not respected a leader since Harold Wilson or Mrs T), but at least it is not fascist, which is the only way I can describe the EU leaders.

You can; most, however, don't.

[Beef Oven]

You can; most, however, don't.

I'm being a bit thick today - I don't understand your point, please explain.

[Beef Oven]

Fair comment, of course, except that, since we all know in advance that UK's withdrawal from EU would form the cornerstone of UKIP's election manifesto, it's most unlikely to attract the votes that it would require in order to enable it to form an overall majority government that could then try to proceed with implementing such withdrawal, so that would be a non-starter; on the other hand, were the present government decide to od yet another U-turn and hold a referendum on this before the next General Election (which is not due for a further three years) and the result goes against withdrawal, there would seem to be little point and even less likelihood of credibility, let alone success, in and arising from continued determination on UKIP's part to maintain that policy as part of a future General Election manifesto, as much of such wind as it currently has in its sails would thereby have been taken out.


Maybe so, but it would still be pretty devastating to a nation already suffering the current economic woes compounded by new ones arising directly from having withdrawn from EU!


If you mean how to quote from different posts in a single post, I must admit to ignorance in being unable to do this myself! Sorry.

No, I mean as you did in post #229 and others!

[ahinton]

I'm being a bit thick today - I don't understand your point, please explain.

You wrote that "the only way I can describe the EU leaders" is "fascist" and I responded that "you can; most, however, don't" - describe them thus, that is. Simples.

[Beef Oven]

You wrote that "the only way I can describe the EU leaders" is "fascist" and I responded that "you can; most, however, don't" - describe them thus, that is. Simples.

thank you.

[ahinton]

No, I mean as you did in post #229 and others!

Ah, I see. It's easy when you know how. If you want to respond to the first part of a message (rather than all of it one go), you insert [ / quote ] (without the spaces that I've put here purely for illustrative purposes) at the end of the passage to which you wish to respond, then press return and type your response. When you then wish to quote the next bit, you first copy the [ QUOTE=Beef Oven;168457 ] or whatever that you see at the top of the post that you're responding to and place it before the next passage that you;re quoteing and then repeat the procedure (i.e. insert [ / quote ] &c. as I wrote above).

I hope that this makes sense to you.

[Beef Oven]

You wrote that "the only way I can describe the EU leaders" is "fascist" and I responded that "you can; most, however, don't" - describe them thus, that is. Simples.

I just spotted a multi-quote button!!!!

[french frank]

I think this has gone a bit downhill. Can we leave particular political parties and what their aim is, and concentrate on the issues - as we, as individuals, see them?

I understand the difficulties the broad left has with an organisation like the EU: powerful international corporatism, the power of the bankers. But why are those on (in a general sense) the right against that? It's what we have in the UK (even under a Labour government) and there is no sense that the anti-EU view, a low-tax libertarianism, would be opposed to this as long as the power appeared to reside in UK organisations.

I'm trying to work out what causes the element of knee-jerkism against the EU. I understand the left-wing position since it's coherent: I find the right position ... muddled. I'm sure this is why phrases like 'Little Englander' are bandied about.

[eighthobstruction]

I think I may have the answer....All the Greeks should move to Germany....Greece would then be empty so that the Palestinian Question could also be solved by Israel moving into vacated Greece....

....failing that the New Socialisto [June 17th] Govt should freeze all Bank monies (that which is left) of people with more than say E50,000.... (Particularly those who are identified as having 'milked' the Eurozone system)....they should then hand out E10 /day to each person on street corners....and then ....

VERY GOOD to see Newsnight team rebuked last night by a Greek politician and an American Economist, for not respecting the Greeks as a people and trivialising their plight as comedy....it silenced Paxman (schtum)....I imagine a producer saying into Paxmans earpiece "leave it Jeremy, leave it"

[Beef Oven]

I think I may have the answer....All the Greeks should move to Germany....Greece would then be empty so that the Palestinian Question could also be solved by Israel moving into vacated Greece....

....failing that the New Socialisto [June 17th] Govt should freeze all Bank monies (that which is left) of people with more than say E50,000.... (Particularly those who are identified as having 'milked' the Eurozone system)....they should then hand out E10 /day to each person on street corners....and then ....

VERY GOOD to see Newsnight team rebuked last night by a Greek politician and an American Economist, for not respecting the Greeks as a people and trivialising their plight as comedy....it silenced Paxman (schtum)

[Lateralthinking1]

I believe many people think that EU membership means accepting a lot of immigration. We will leave the EU and the new tough independent British Government will say "enough is enough".

But hold on. All the influential business people want it. Within a couple of days, they will be on the steps of Downing Street saying "immigration is essential".

And the new tough independent British Government, being pro business, will reply "oh ok then, anything you want".