EU discussion

[James Wonnacott]

I have, however, encountered an alternative strain of opinion of late from certain quarters opposed to UK's continued EU membership, namely that a referendum on it should be discouraged at all costs and that we should instead wait for the total collapse of EU following the collapse of the Eurozone and then no one will be able to accuse the Brits of being the disruptive malcontent go-it-alones as which they'd have been portrayed had they instead actively voted to leave EU; it's an odd notion, but I suppose that I cannot be entirely surprised that some do hold it.

In such circumstances we would be very much caught up in the economic turmoil which would ensue. Better to get out before it happens in my view, If they want to use us as a scapegoat, so be it.

[James Wonnacott]

one-trick political ponies

UKIP would not be in existence were it not for the fact that none of the three established parties offer the option of withdrawing from the eu but if you have a look at the manifesto you'll see that there are policies on most major topics.

[MrGongGong]

what no one seems willing to address is what might happen to UKIP .

That's easy
they would simply get angry about something else
and transfer their energies to that

the really clever move would be to convince them that really important things ARE worth getting angry about
like............

Climate Change (oooops they think this is a myth so probably not a good place to start ?)
Disease eradication
Hunger
Girls in Cathedral Choirs
The arms trade


It's worrying that Scotty seems on the nail here

"There are few things more irritating than somebody who freely joins a club, then constantly moans about the rules and also frequently insults the huge majority of the other members who are apparently happy with the arrangements ."

I thought he would be for them having read their stance on Gay marriage ............

UKIP would not be in existence were it not for the fact that none of the three established parties offer the option of withdrawing from the eu but if you have a look at the manifesto you'll see that there are policies on most major topics.

That really is a bit of a non argument............none of them offer many things which are equally or even more important
Free Beer, higher taxes so we can have a Finnish level of public services, ethical foreign policy, replacing the national anthem with the Lux Aeterna from the Ligeti requiem or even making it illegal to cycle on the pavement etc etc

why do you believe so much in the process of elected government to deliver what you think people want ?

[ahinton]

In such circumstances we would be very much caught up in the economic turmoil which would ensue. Better to get out before it happens in my view, If they want to use us as a scapegoat, so be it.

But we'll be caught up in that whether our ties with EU are severed by means of the successful outcome of a referendum in favour of such severance or the collapse of the Eurozone and then EU; the only difference will be that UK won't attract the same blame in the latter case; indeed, we're already caught up in that up to our brass necks and beyond well before either circumstance might occur! Leaving EU of our own accord will, for example, no more wipe our debts off the map than Greece's likely exit from the Eurozone will do the same for its debts.

[ahinton]

UKIP would not be in existence were it not for the fact that none of the three established parties offer the option of withdrawing from the eu but if you have a look at the manifesto you'll see that there are policies on most major topics.

I know that, but if a referendum on UK's continued EU membership should result in the status quo, a fundamental tenet of UKIP will have been removed at a stroke, thereby undermining not only its status as a political party but its very name; what would or indeed could it purport or claim to favour "independence" from then?

[Beef Oven]

I know that, but if a referendum on UK's continued EU membership should result in the status quo, a fundamental tenet of UKIP will have been removed at a stroke, thereby undermining not only its status as a political party but its very name; what would or indeed could it purport or claim to favour "independence" from then?

Neither issue is a show-stopper.

[MrGongGong]

what would or indeed could it purport or claim to favour "independence" from then?

the rest of humanity I guess ......?

Neither issue is a show-stopper.

I thought that WAS the show ?
The whole show
It's like removing the repeats from Philip Glass ........ without them ...............(actually now you come to mention it .....)

Alcohol free whisky ?

[Beef Oven]

What a thoroughly cogent argument. scottycelt must feel totally crestfallen.

Scotty will get over it, but I am sure he appreciates your concern Bryn.

Thinking of cogent arguments, or not, as the case may be, may I congratulate you on the searing logic and depth of analysis of your post #139. I shall look at the EU issue with diferent eyes now. New paradigms only come about once in a while.

Let me have a go at following your argument:

China, being the current economic/political/world threat, is what we need Europe for now. A bulwark against this yellow monster.

We can't stand against them alone, but collectively we can take them on and.................go to them with our begging bowl and ask to borrow money so we can continue with our EU plan?

No, wait a moment, that can't be right! I guess I haven't quite got the hang of this yet




P.S. I was only 14 in 1974, but I think I could have come up with something better

P.P.S. And to cap it all, when we went a-begging to China for money, they took a sniff at our EU economics, realised it stunk, and politely declined!!!

[Bryn]

... I guess I haven't quite got the hang of this yet ...

That much, and that much alone, you actually get right.

Regarding the post-script, you have shown no evidence of any such ability in your contributions to this thread, so perhaps it's been all downhill for you since your 14th birthday.

[Beef Oven]

That much, and that much alone, you actually get right.

Regarding the post-script, you have shown no evidence of any such ability in your contributions to this thread, so perhaps it's been all downhill for you since your 14th birthday.

But I assume you got better (despite the evidence).

[french frank]

I'm going to Chris's funeral today and shall be away all day.

This is prior notification that I shall probably close this thread temporarily to avoid having to deal with problems when I get back.

Thank you .....

[scottycelt]

... It's worrying that Scotty seems on the nail here

"There are few things more irritating than somebody who freely joins a club, then constantly moans about the rules and also frequently insults the huge majority of the other members who are apparently happy with the arrangements ."

I thought he would be for them having read their stance on Gay marriage ............

I'm not entirely sure who 'they' are, but I try not to confuse politics with moral conviction, Mr GG .... the two have very little in common.

[ahinton]

Neither issue is a show-stopper.

Arguably so, but only in the sense that UKIP itself isn't one either - and I write that not for the purpose of personally condemning it per se but because the numbers of votes that it receives, election candidates that it fields and MPs that it has in Parliament all demonstrate that. OK, UKIP's success may improve temporarily in broadly the same ways as B*P's or other minority parties' might do, in and because a developing swathe of electoral disconten, but, since the prospect of its gaining an overall majority and forming a government in UK is but a tiny percentage of that of even the LibDems doing the same, it is - and is likely for the foreseeable future to remain - a sideshow at best (albeit a noisily vociferous one) and decidedly not a show-stopper. It is a legal political party and accordingly has a right to make its views, prospective policies, &c., known to the public, but it has almost no actual political clout and has to try to make up for that by making a disproportionae amount of noise, which it is as entitled to do as the electorate is entitled largely to shun it.

[ahinton]

It's like removing the repeats from Philip Glass

How nice to read a welcome prospect on here for a change! What a crying shame that you then immediately spoil it with reference to

Alcohol free whisky

UKIP if you want to; I'm setting the might and wrath of the SNP onto you for that one, Mr GG!

[Bryn]

... making a disproportiona[t]e amount of noise ...

Hmm. Empty vessels, eh?