The Queen's Jubilee

[JohnSkelton]

Incidentally, whilst I admit to being unfamiliar with the identity of the source from which you cite ""The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggle" - not" as your current sign-off, it's a rather inanely tautologous quote; how could a "history" be of anything than "hitherto existing"?...

The 'history of society' would imply the history of contemporary society (or contemporary to the authors), wouldn't it? So (up to the "not", which isn't in the original ) the quote isn't "inanely tautological" in any sense. And, obviously enough, it implies that a future society might be different.

It's from The Communist Manifesto, an obscure and uninfluential text written by two otherwise unknowns, Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. You can read it, and consult its German original via the link at the top of the page, here http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx...festo/ch01.htm

[scottycelt]

We should be most grateful to Mr Oven ... it's surely the inclusion of the 'not' which might finally make the text in any way comprehensible to the 'rest of us'.

[Beef Oven]

We should be most grateful to Mr Oven ... it's surely the inclusion of the 'not' which might finally make the text in any way comprehensible to the 'rest of us'.

Well spotted Scotty

[french frank]

The left arm of the poor b*gg*r that waves that flag so incessantly and energetically must be even more exhausted than is HM the Queen's right wrist from shaking however many hands she's shaken over the past 60+ years and it wold seem to be high time that the former fell off; one can only wish that your apparently insatiable desire to introduce that absurdly pleonastic emoticon at every opportunity and none would - er - flag...

I've been investigating a way of disabling it but it would probably be like the BBC trying to prevent On Demand downloads: they clobber one solution and up pops another

[JohnSkelton]

We should be most grateful to Mr Oven ... it's surely the inclusion of the 'not' which might finally make the text in any way comprehensible to the 'rest of us'.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SorguDJ5V84/TZzL4J4SeEI/AAAAAAAAAFo/yIb6xYrDJh0/s1600/idiot1.jpg

[Flosshilde]

I've been investigating a way of disabling it but it would probably be like the BBC trying to prevent On Demand downloads: they clobber one solution and up pops another

It's quite simple really - don't click on a link provided by BO - especailly if it is a gif

[Flosshilde]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SorguDJ5V8...600/idiot1.jpg

[scottycelt]

[french frank]

And, obviously enough, it implies that a future society might be different.

Since 'bisher' means up until this point, now.

I'm sure someone has already neatly encapsulated the truism that the future is history which has not yet happened; the 'story' (Geschichte') which has not yet been told - but will be in years hence. Nor is this the history of everything in a general way, but, specifically, the history of society (Gesellschaft), of human beings living and interacting together; a history which has had it strong and weak, rich and poor, powerful and powerless.

If, at times, there has been no class struggle, it has been, even worse, the total subjugation of the powerful by the powerless. Even in the democracies of Ancient Greece, there were slaves.


["Die Geschichte aller bisherigen Gesellschaft ist die Geschichte von Klassenkämpfen."]

[scottycelt]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SorguDJ5V8...600/idiot1.jpg

Ahhhh ... you've identified yet another 'group' ... welcome back to it, Mr Skelton! ...

[amateur51]

Prince Charles (what a delightfully Stuart-sounding name) is now more popular than William (horrible Hanoverian sort of name), and is the people's preferred choice as our future King, according to the latest opinion poll.

God Save the Duke of Rothesay!

Erm the people and the pollsters are mistaken.

There is no choice.

That's why some of us want a republic

PS: What's a preferred choice? Is there an unpreferred choice?

Tautological I call it

[amateur51]

We should be most grateful to Mr Oven ... it's surely the inclusion of the 'not' which might finally make the text in any way comprehensible to the 'rest of us'.

I'm sure that a workable definition of 'rest of us' will be along soon

I thought we were all individuals in your best of all possible worlds, scotty

[BBMmk2]

Might i say to the Republicans on thesse b oards, look hopw muchPresidenceys cost the tax payer as to the M ornachy. A Repub;lic will be a more costly venture to this country and also will touroism suffer as a result ofno Mornachy?

[ahinton]

The 'history of society' would imply the history of contemporary society (or contemporary to the authors), wouldn't it?

Not necessarily, in the quoted context of "all hitherto existing society" which does not specify reference to contemporaneity; as to my charge of the "inanely tautological", it arises from the notion that the words "all hitherto existing" could be removed from the sentence without any consequent alteration of its intended meaning, hence "the history of society is the history of class struggle". Of course it implies, as you say that it does, "that a future society might be different" in the sense that, just because something has allegedly pertained throughout society up to the time of writing, it does not necessarily follow that it will therefore continue indefinitely. One problem with the sentence, however - since you mention implication - is that it might be seen to imply that the history of society is the history of nothing else besides "class struggle", which is very misleading indeed. Furthermore, "class struggle" means and has meant different things to different people in different places at different times; if one is to accept and be somehow bound by the notion of "class" in the sense in which it appears to be meant here, one might well ask when and/or how the uppermost classes have ever "struggled" and, given tht the inevitable answer would be that they haven't, the conclusion to be drawn from this is that one sector of society has not had to struggle to manintain itself, which fact suggests that the phrase should perhaps better read that "the history of some sectors of society in certain locations has from time to time been the history of class struggle", for all that this is far less punchy.

The extent of influence of The Communist Manifesto since it first appeared has, just like that ever-evolving society, inevitably varied from time to time and from place to place and it might be argued today that the significant fall of Communism in practice, though it has yet to become universal, is illustrative of a fundamental decrease in its global influence from the heady days of Maoism, the Soviet Union et al.

[amateur51]

I've been investigating a way of disabling it but it would probably be like the BBC trying to prevent On Demand downloads: they clobber one solution and up pops another

Well you did such sterling work on censoring the much-missed and 'Nutwood' that I'm sure success is but a few moments away, french frank