The Queen's Jubilee

[scottycelt]

Have any arguments for the monarchy been put forward on this thread - apart from 'most people like it', 'it would cost less than a president', & 'it's good for tourism'?

In a democracy (unlike a state 'socialist paradise') it's surely the people's majority view that counts.

The fact that 'most people like it' should be enough to settle the matter whatever the particular view of individuals, as I'm sure Mr Skelton would concur.

Even republicans are not exactly clamouring for a referendum on the issue, as they know full well they would be slaughtered at the polls (hopefully figuratively-speaking!).

End of story ... no further debate required ... or at least it should be for any true democrat, whether royalist or republican.

[MrGongGong]

In a democracy (unlike a state 'socialist paradise') it's surely the people's majority view that counts.

The fact that 'most people like it' should be enough to settle the matter whatever the particular view of individuals, as I'm sure Mr Skelton would concur.

Even republicans are not exactly clamouring for a referendum on the issue, as they know full well they would be slaughtered at the polls (hopefully figuratively-speaking!).

End of story ... no further debate required ... or at least it should be for any true democrat, whether royalist or republican.

So given that "most people" DIDN'T vote for this government we have I'm sure you will agree with me then that they have no mandate to do the things they are doing as were never asked about them ......................

"Most people" think that Smetana is a type of soft cheese (actually "most" people don't have the faintest idea about cheese ..........)

[Flosshilde]

In a democracy (unlike a state 'socialist paradise') it's surely the people's majority view that counts.

The fact that 'most people like it' should be enough to settle the matter whatever the particular view of individuals

Up to a point, Lord Copper.

The point being that there hasn't been, on this thread or, as far as I know, in any other forum, a solid argument/debate based on facts about the merits of the monarchy or a president. 'Most people' might be in favour, but that isn't an argument, it's a claim. If there was a proper debate about the institution, separated from the personalities (ie not whether Queen Elizabeth II is a good queen, or Charles will be a bad king, or the merits of a President Blair or Cameron or Benn), then 'most people' might change their mind.

(Reliance on 'most people' as an argument for or against something is risky; 'most people' aren't members of the Church of England, so why are CofE Bishops still part of the legislature?)

[scottycelt]

So given that "most people" DIDN'T vote for this government we have I'm sure you will agree with me then that they have no mandate to do the things they are doing as were never asked about them ......................

"Most people" think that Smetana is a type of soft cheese (actually "most" people don't have the faintest idea about cheese ..........)

Yes, we all know what the middle-class Left really thinks about 'the people', but it's the people's voice that must always win the day, Mr GG ...

If enough of the same people agree with you about the current Government they'll soon turf it out at the next election ... ?

[MrGongGong]

Up to a point, Lord Copper.

The point being that there hasn't been, on this thread or, as far as I know, in any other forum, a solid argument/debate based on facts about the merits of the monarchy or a president. 'Most people' might be in favour, but that isn't an argument, it's a claim. If there was a proper debate about the institution, separated from the personalities (ie not whether Queen Elizabeth II is a good queen, or Charles will be a bad king, or the merits of a President Blair or Cameron or Benn), then 'most people' might change their mind.

Indeed

So (in the spirit of the great Billy Jenkins)

how about Charlie the plant chatter VS president Attenborough ?
or
Harry of the fancy dress VS president Lumley

[MrGongGong]

Yes, we all know what the middle-class Left really thinks about 'the people', but it's the people's voice that must always win the day, Mr GG ...

If enough of the same people agree with you about the current Government they'll soon turf it out at the next election ... ?

EEEER how come ?

a couple of points

1: Going on about "left" and "right" really means very little these days
2: How can you "turf out" a government when everyone standing for election believes more or less in the same things ?
3: since when did we have an electoral system where the person who gets the most votes (or EVERYONE) wins ?


the "peoples voice"

[scottycelt]

Up to a point, Lord Copper.

The point being that there hasn't been, on this thread or, as far as I know, in any other forum, a solid argument/debate based on facts about the merits of the monarchy or a president. 'Most people' might be in favour, but that isn't an argument, it's a claim. If there was a proper debate about the institution, separated from the personalities (ie not whether Queen Elizabeth II is a good queen, or Charles will be a bad king, or the merits of a President Blair or Cameron or Benn), then 'most people' might change their mind.

Do you really think that most of the British people are that stupid and ignorant regarding such matters, Floss ... ?

Not my experience ...

They may have simply made up their minds long ago!

[MrGongGong]

They may have simply made up their minds long ago!

I made up my mind long ago that lego was the best thing in the universe..............

but that was before I discovered

Sex
Talisker
Oysters
Ligeti

still I guess it's admirable to hold on to your childhood misconceptions

[Flosshilde]

Do you really think that most of the British people are that stupid and ignorant regarding such matters, Floss ... ?

Not my experience ...

You've met 'most of the British people' then?

They may have simply made up their minds long ago!

Well, I think I'm crediting 'them' with rather more intelligence than you are. They're not all inflexible neanderthals!

[scottycelt]

.. Going on about "left" and "right" really means very little these days ...

Reminds me of those in the media who said, when the Berlin Wall tumbled down, that it marked ... 'The End of History' ... I'm still trying to work that one out.

[MrGongGong]

Reminds me of those in the media who said, when the Berlin Wall tumbled down, that it marked ... 'The End of History' ... I'm still trying to work that one out.

Reminds me of Sardines

When folk like you go on about people being on the "left" it usually means that you have dropped your trousers and aren't speaking out of the usual place !

[Lateralthinking1]

a 'property-owning democracy'.....maybe this chap needs to see a prison psychiatrist?

http://politicalscrapbook.net/2012/06/tory-councillor-force-seriously-ill-people-out-to-push-up-house-prices/

Good grief handsome fortune. You should have highlighted this part of your post with flashing lights. I thought that it was a send up at first. To make matters worse, he is a member of the National Secular Society who, although being on Surrey and Elmbridge Councils, has contributed to the appeal against Bideford Council and he himself has stormed out of the Elmbridge Council prayers.



There's good and bad in many positions - religious, secular, Jedi - but you can guarantee that the most dangerous nutters who subscribe to one or all of them are in one way or another democratically elected. I suggest an anger management course - he could appear to have got the hump about (a) being ill and (b) having an NHS appointment postponed - and he should be asked to explain on television why he expects us to pay for him via the NHS when he condemns it as a Marxist organisation on its last legs.

Ask yourselves - Charles and Camilla (yes I know it is very testing) - or this thing? In a nutshell, he is my nomination for the Most Repulsive Creep of the Year award. But hold on a minute. Isn't this the same J.V.C Butcher who stood for the Tories against Shirley Williams in Crosby and lost in 1981? Change the diagnosis to a 31 year chip on the shoulder. It doesn't get more pathetic than that!

[scottycelt]

You've met 'most of the British people' then? .. Well, I think I'm crediting 'them' with rather more intelligence than you are. They're not all inflexible neanderthals!

No, been much to busy to meet them all, but certainly a very decent 'opinion-poll' sample of them, that's for sure ... if you doubt it why don't you campaign for a referendum on the issue?

And kindly watch what you say about my fellow-Neanderthals ...

[MrGongGong]

No, been much to busy to meet them all, but certainly a very decent 'opinion-poll' sample of them, that's for sure ... if you doubt it why don't you campaign for a referendum on the issue?

And kindly watch what you say about my fellow-Neanderthals ...

In many ways the root of the problem is that some people seem completely unable to conceive of the idea that we might not have a perfect system of making decisions. It does remind me of a student in a group I was working with a few weeks ago who simply couldn't conceive that anyone would want to make music with anything other than an electric guitar, he was completely lost for words and couldn't understand why it wasn't the perfect instrument for all music everywhere.......... when people say they have lost faith completely in our electoral system they usually mean precisely that ! so the "well if you think you could do better , you stand for election" simply indicates a lack of listening........ the same thing when you get the "you go to north Korea and see what it's like not to have the Queen/Tories/Police" etc etc etc

[Lateralthinking1]

Re 1287 : And here it is -

The dashing Councillor Butcher (Surrey County Council) in 1981. Funny how the papers don't seem to know about this:

http://www.by-elections.co.uk/crosby81/Conservative.html

http://www.by-elections.co.uk/crosby81/concros812b.jpg

http://www.by-elections.co.uk/crosby81/concros814b.jpg

http://www.by-elections.co.uk/crosby81/concros811b.jpg

Key quote from above at age 39 - "All my adult life I've wanted to be an MP" .......but, now 70, he never was one.

(Wonder if Crosby is a first or second tier NHS place in his view now - and does the RN count as a dangerous sport?)