The joy of having one's preferences validated by a higher authority

[LeMartinPecheur]

...none is a true value judgement and shouldn't be taken as such...

Do please propound a demonstrably true value judgment!

[ahinton]

Do please propound a demonstrably true value judgment!

Why do you ask, in a context where the exposure and discussion of individuals' personal aversions to Liszt, Tchaikovsky or whomsoever is under scrutiny and in which few if any are seeking to suggest that these opinions are somehow representative of incontrovertible fact?

[Serial_Apologist]

Do please propound a demonstrably true value judgment!

You are invoking the felling of more virtual trees than you realise, LMP!

[Nick Armstrong]

You are invoking the felling of more virtual trees than you realise, LMP!

[ahinton]

You are invoking the felling of more virtual trees than you realise, LMP!

I presume that you'd not had time to read #47 before posting that (which is understandable, given the timing of each) - but on whose higher authority might such deforestation be likely to come about in any case? (just thought I'd have a brief nod a the topic while I'm writing - always a good idea, it seems to me)...

[french frank]

I presume that you'd not had time to read #47 before posting that (which is understandable, given the timing of each) - but on whose higher authority might such deforestation be likely to come about in any case? (just thought I'd have a brief nod a the topic while I'm writing - always a good idea, it seems to me)...

Up to a point, milord. I took Caliban's use of the the terms 'higher authority' and 'validated' to be jocular rather than literal; implying that when one has obvious blind spots, or irrational aversions, it's comforting to know that they're shared with knowledgeable and respected professionals. One doesn't feel so ... alone.

This is rather turning into a duplicate 'Pedant's Paradise' (or was it 'Pedants' Paradise'?) but I wonder if the phrase 'a true value judgement' is akin to 'a true perception', as in the phrase: 'Perceptions may be wrong, but they are always true'?

[amateur51]

Up to a point, milord. I took Caliban's use of the the terms 'higher authority' and 'validated' to be jocular rather than literal; implying that when one has obvious blind spots, or irrational aversions, it's comforting to know that they're shared with knowledgeable and respected professionals. One doesn't feel so ... alone.

This is rather turning into a duplicate 'Pedant's Paradise' (or was it 'Pedants' Paradise'?) but I wonder if the phrase 'a true value judgement' is akin to 'a true perception', as in the phrase: 'Perceptions may be wrong, but they are always true'?

Nicely done, french frank your post has made me laugh for the first time today!

The first of many I hope but the first is always treasured

I'm off to a performance of 'As You Like It' at Shakespeare's Globe today - in Georgian - so laughs may be in short supply

[aeolium]

I wonder if the phrase 'a true value judgement' is akin to 'a true perception', as in the phrase: 'Perceptions may be wrong, but they are always true'?

I'm not sure that that is the case in relation to value judgements about music. If someone is in a desert and believes he sees an oasis although in fact there is no oasis there - it is a mirage - then his perception might be true (there is no doubt that he really thinks he sees the oasis) but wrong (i.e. objectively disprovable). But if he thinks a piece of music is wonderful or horrible, then no-one can objectively disprove that judgement. That kind of judgement can never be 'wrong' in the way that the perception of a non-existent oasis is 'wrong'.

[MrGongGong]

I'm not sure that that is the case in relation to value judgements about music. If someone is in a desert and believes he sees an oasis although in fact there is no oasis there - it is a mirage - then his perception might be true (there is no doubt that he really thinks he sees the oasis) but wrong (i.e. objectively disprovable). But if he thinks a piece of music is wonderful or horrible, then no-one can objectively disprove that judgement. That kind of judgement can never be 'wrong' in the way that the perception of a non-existent oasis is 'wrong'.

Of course, I have lots of music that is "wonderfully horrible"

(some people even profess to liking G&S ............... joke )

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

Do please propound a demonstrably true value judgment!

i am an idiot ....

[french frank]

I'm not sure that that is the case in relation to value judgements about music. If someone is in a desert and believes he sees an oasis although in fact there is no oasis there - it is a mirage - then his perception might be true (there is no doubt that he really thinks he sees the oasis) but wrong (i.e. objectively disprovable). But if he thinks a piece of music is wonderful or horrible, then no-one can objectively disprove that judgement. That kind of judgement can never be 'wrong' in the way that the perception of a non-existent oasis is 'wrong'.

In other words, the frequently heard cliché, There are only two sorts of music, good and bad, is patently untrue since the music cannot be, objectively, bad? Or good? It merely has qualities which appeal or don't appeal to the individual who cannot be wrong in his or her 'value judgement'. But is this a value judgement at all - rather than an expression of personal taste (perhaps the value to oneself, but that isn't what is usually meant by a value judgement).

Could we have two more trees, please?

[aeolium]

In other words, the frequently heard cliché, There are only two sorts of music, good and bad, is patently untrue since the music cannot be, objectively, bad? Or good? It merely has qualities which appeal or don't appeal to the individual who cannot be wrong in his or her 'value judgement'. But is this a value judgement at all - rather than an expression of personal taste (perhaps the value to oneself, but that isn't what is usually meant by a value judgement).

You could have a value judgement that would not be an expression of personal taste - e.g. "I don't like the music of X at all but I think it's well composed" but I think this kind of verdict is no more objective than the expression of personal taste. There are no universally agreed criteria of good (or bad) composition to which anyone could refer to validate their judgement.

Could we have two more trees, please?

I'm sure we've had this discussion once or twice before on these boards

[vinteuil]

Do please propound a demonstrably true value judgment!

Which reminds me of one of my philosophy tutors, recalling how in an examination he had encountered the following question: "Defend a proposition" - and had sat there, head in hands, for ten minutes, before exclaiming - "But I can't think of any proposition I could defend!"

[3rd Viennese School]

Well, there's nothing wrong with Liszt Piano sonata. For piano. It’s got to be the best Piano sonata out there. It was even on the Channel 4 testcard!

I would like to see Elgar try and write a work as good as that!

Or indeed, anything decent and I think God agrees with me too.

3VS

[Nick Armstrong]

I took Caliban's use of the the terms 'higher authority' and 'validated' to be jocular rather than literal; implying that when one has obvious blind spots, or irrational aversions, it's comforting to know that they're shared with knowledgeable and respected professionals.

Absolutely and precisely, ff!

Amazing how one's little trickle of a thought can become transformed into a tree-endangering torrent