Happy Europe Day, Everyone!

[Flosshilde]

on the one hand, you regard yourself as technically 25% British and, on the other, that you regard yourself as "British through and through".

Perhaps he's like a stick of Blackpool (or Brighton) rock - it has 'Blackpool' (or 'Brighton') all the way through it, but the word 'Blackpool' (or 'Brighton') is only a small part of the totality.

[Beef Oven]

Perhaps he's like a stick of Blackpool (or Brighton) rock - it has 'Blackpool' (or 'Brighton') all the way through it, but the word 'Blackpool' (or 'Brighton') is only a small part of the totality.

Go eat lunch!

[ahinton]

Difficult to shout in a forum 'in any case' - actually, upper-case is shouting.

"Technically" (!), it is, but then, as I wasn't using upper case, I wasn't shouting "in any event".

Anyway, being British is hard to put into words.

Well, you've demonstrated to near perfection that it is so for you!

But one thing is certain, if you don't want to be British, you don't have to be.

How do you figure that out? If it's so hard to put into words in the first place, it must surely be equally hard not to be something that your passport claims you to be. Yhe only way that I am aware of whereby someone who is a British citizen can cease to be one is by taking up the citizenship of another country and renouncing British citizenship rather than assuming dual nationaltiy as som people do.

The %ages and the 'through and through business' is oxymoronic, designed to emphasise the point that 'British' is a civic, cultural and voluntary concept.

I'm not so sure about the "oxy" but, were one to accept in principle (ass you appear to do) that someone can be both "technically 25% British" and at the same time "British through and through", it would not only be very difficult if not impossible to assess the extent of his/her "civic" and "cultural" allegiance to Britain but also leave the observer with the assumption that the said person regards such a "civic, cultural and voluntary concept" as taking precedence over the citizenship declaration in his/her person's passport; it is unclear how much sense, if any, such a stance might make.

[ahinton]

Go eat lunch!

Please give Flossie time to put some beef in the oven and cook it before she has to have lunch! (British beef, of course - it's very hard to improve on the best of that)...

[John Skelton]

The %ages and the 'through and through business' is oxymoronic, designed to emphasise the point that 'British' is a civic, cultural and voluntary concept, not racial, ethnic or religious.

But people often say that they are 'British' because they feel 'British' within, so in a way they are saying it isn't voluntary and it isn't a concept. It's a kind of instinctive emotion; not racial or ethnic, but to do with where you are born and grown up.

I think I feel a bit like that about London: not especially in a sentimental way, but because the sights and sounds of London were all around me in childhood. Even where they've changed over the years or become almost unrecognisable I recognise them. I can understand the emotion locally, not nationally.

[Beef Oven]

"Technically" (!), it is, but then, as I wasn't using upper case, I wasn't shouting "in any event".


Well, you've demonstrated to near perfection that it is so for you!


How do you figure that out? If it's so hard to put into words in the first place, it must surely be equally hard not to be something that your passport claims you to be. Yhe only way that I am aware of whereby someone who is a British citizen can cease to be one is by taking up the citizenship of another country and renouncing British citizenship rather than assuming dual nationaltiy as som people do.


I'm not so sure about the "oxy" but, were one to accept in principle (ass you appear to do) that someone can be both "technically 25% British" and at the same time "British through and through", it would not only be very difficult if not impossible to assess the extent of his/her "civic" and "cultural" allegiance to Britain but also leave the observer with the assumption that the said person regards such a "civic, cultural and voluntary concept" as taking precedence over the citizenship declaration in his/her person's passport; it is unclear how much sense, if any, such a stance might make.

I can see that you are struggling. I did say it wasn't easy!

[ahinton]

But people often say that they are 'British' because they feel 'British' within, so in a way they are saying it isn't voluntary and it isn't a concept. It's a kind of instinctive emotion; not racial or ethnic, but to do with where you are born and grown up.

I think I feel a bit like that about London: not especially in a sentimental way, but because the sights and sounds of London were all around me in childhood. Even where they've changed over the years or become almost unrecognisable I recognise them. I can understand the emotion locally, not nationally.

I can well understand and accept what you are saying here, even though my own experience is rather less than yours in this regard because I happen to have left Scotland just before reaching the age of 8 and have lived in England for most of the time since then. I think that part of the problem of expression and understanding here has something to do with the difference between whether and to what extent one might "feel" British and whether or to what extent one actually "is" British (or can be regarded as such by others), either by birth, by domicile, by citizenship status or indeed any combination of the three; in other words, there may sometimes (though not necessarily) be a difference between the emotions and the facts. As a Scot who'se lived outside his country for most of his life, I still regard myself as a Scot, just as I recognise that I am a British citizen according to my passport and a European because I was born in Europe, live in Europe and have a European passport. I do not regard myself as "British through and through" but I'm certainly not "anti-British". How anyone who does regard themselves as "British through and through" (which, of course, they have a perfect right to do if that reflects accurately their emotional allegiance to Britain) will feel following the dissolution of the union (should that occur) is, however, quite another matter and, I imagine, one of no small importance, especially to those who do feel like that at present.

[ahinton]

I can see that you are struggling. I did say it wasn't easy!

Really? You must have quite different vision to me, then! (maybe you should have gone to Specsavers, assuming it to be a wholly British firm if indeed it is such). You may have said that "it" (whatever that may be) "wasn't easy", but I have to admit that I've yet to encounter any difficulty here other than in understanding how you equate being "technically" one quarter of something while at the same time apparently being 100% of ditto; if in fact this is because your background (as you cited it) is fourfold but you nevertheless "feel" (pace John Skelton's most recent contribution to this thread) "British through and through", that might go some way to explain the situation, but you've not actually done this so, in so saying, I am doing no more than suggesting a possible assumption.

[Beef Oven]

I can well understand and accept what you are saying here, even though my own experience is rather less than yours in this regard because I happen to have left Scotland just before reaching the age of 8 and have lived in England for most of the time since then. I think that part of the problem of expression and understanding here has something to do with the difference between whether and to what extent one might "feel" British and whether or to what extent one actually "is" British (or can be regarded as such by others), either by birth, by domicile, by citizenship status or indeed any combination of the three; in other words, there may sometimes (though not necessarily) be a difference between the emotions and the facts. As a Scot who'se lived outside his country for most of his life, I still regard myself as a Scot, just as I recognise that I am a British citizen according to my passport and a European because I was born in Europe, live in Europe and have a European passport. I do not regard myself as "British through and through" but I'm certainly not "anti-British". How anyone who does regard themselves as "British through and through" (which, of course, they have a perfect right to do if that reflects accurately their emotional allegiance to Britain) will feel following the dissolution of the union (should that occur) is, however, quite another matter and, I imagine, one of no small importance, especially to those who do feel like that at present.

So, you're Scottish. Ok. Are you Scottish through and through?

[ahinton]

So, you're Scottish. Ok. Are you Scottish through and through?

Good question. The honest answer is that I really don't know, although as "through and through" might suggest (at least to some) that I do not regard myself as British or European, perhaps I am not. I'm not at all sure that it matters as much as some people seem to think that such things matter but, in so saying, I am not trying to avoid answering your question!

[Beef Oven]

Good question. The honest answer is that I really don't know, although as "through and through" might suggest (at least to some) that I do not regard myself as British or European, perhaps I am not. I'm not at all sure that it matters as much as some people seem to think that such things matter but, in so saying, I am not trying to avoid answering your question!

I know you're not trying to avoid answering, indeed you've given a most honest answer.

You have also made a very important point; such things do not matter. The trouble is too much gets read into such things. What does it matter if people like me, consider themselves utterly British even though only 25% of the blood coursing through their veins is British?

Belonging to a particular nationality, culture, whatever, is primarily a collection of subjective things. Objective things like passports and place of birth are very important, but not defining.

[Beef Oven]

But people often say that they are 'British' because they feel 'British' within, so in a way they are saying it isn't voluntary and it isn't a concept. It's a kind of instinctive emotion; not racial or ethnic, but to do with where you are born and grown up.

I think I feel a bit like that about London: not especially in a sentimental way, but because the sights and sounds of London were all around me in childhood. Even where they've changed over the years or become almost unrecognisable I recognise them. I can understand the emotion locally, not nationally.

I recognise much of this, but my London was always inextricably linked to England and Britain.

[3rd Viennese School]

Do you live in London or Old Kent?

(or Old Essex/ Old Surrey etc etc and so on. or even Old London)

[Beef Oven]

Do you live in London or Old Kent?

(or Old Essex/ Old Surrey etc etc and so on. or even Old London)

London.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

?

Winding everybody up, then when cornered dismissing what was posed as a serious point with a joke, then changing the subject.

It's a character trait. My dad, who could never afford to lose an argument, did this all the time.

yer never can tell eh ..................... yer might be brothers ....