One year on from Blackpool and Fukushima....

[Frances_iom]

As for ideas being suppressed.....I think it would be better to look around for yourself. By definition, its hard to be certain, but it always strikes me as odd that the internal combustion engine hasn't been improved upon in 120 years. Perhaps it is just a great solution after all......

NUTS - the basic concept has been around for that time but technology has greatly improved both forms of Internal combustyion engine (spark + Diesel) - likewise the fuel has become technically much better - however it is difficult to find any other convenient fuel with the energy/mass ratio and the convenient handling of petroleum based fuels.

[Resurrection Man]

....
As for ideas being suppressed.....I think it would be better to look around for yourself. ....

You see this is where I take issue with some of your posts. It's all very well bandying about well-meaning platitudes such as " there are answers to our energy needs." and "too many good ideas being kept down by vested interests," but when challenged to provide any evidence to support these wild statements ...for that is what they are...you tell me to go and look for myself? Sorry, debates don't work like that. You made the statements...and so where is the evidence to back up these sweeping generalisations?

[teamsaint]

NUTS - the basic concept has been around for that time but technology has greatly improved both forms of Internal combustyion engine (spark + Diesel) - likewise the fuel has become technically much better - however it is difficult to find any other convenient fuel with the energy/mass ratio and the convenient handling of petroleum based fuels.

well since they tell us the oil is running out fast, we had better get a move on finally finding something to replace it.(and bio diesel doesn't seem like a great idea what with the land shortage and all !)
I have great faith in science and engineering to find solutions. But the world is a strange place where what ought to happen doesn't always happen.

[Vile Consort]

if you did, I wonder who put the statistic out.....and is it true?
If they are the same as normal levels, why is there an exclusion zone? can that be in anybody's interests?

The same as normal levels elsewhere - important difference.

Why is there an exclusion zone? Because peoples' irrational fear of radioactivity leads to irrational decisions being taken. And because people dying of naturally-occurring radiation is an act of God, whereas people dying because of radiation released from a power station would be an act of a government minister, and government ministers have to think of what will happen at the next election.

The UK limit for radiation exposure at work is set so low that people in parts of Cornwall and Aberdeenshire are exposed to higher levels in their own homes and workplaces. If some of these workplaces were declared to be nuclear facilities, they would have to be shut down immediately, demolished and disposed of (along with the natural top-soil) in a hole in the ground as "low-level nuclear waste". People living near the hole would, of course, be horrified at such "dangerous" material being dumped there.

[Resurrection Man]

Which brings us nicely round, VC, to Lovelace's commonsense comments on the radio the other day!

TS....no comment or examples?

[teamsaint]

You see this is where I take issue with some of your posts. It's all very well bandying about well-meaning platitudes such as " there are answers to our energy needs." and "too many good ideas being kept down by vested interests," but when challenged to provide any evidence to support these wild statements ...for that is what they are...you tell me to go and look for myself? Sorry, debates don't work like that. You made the statements...and so where is the evidence to back up these sweeping generalisations?

Ok, so when I did give you facts, like on the online banking thread, you didn't respond. I even said I was happy to be proved wrong, which I am.
I could outline other peoples ideas on here, but you would certainly want to do deeper research for yourself anyway. So I will cut out the middle man, and leave you to ignore or investigate this interesting and important area !

Incidentally, RM, I just remembered that on the "Posh Boys " thread you strongly suggested here

29-04-12, 22:28
Thread: Posh Boys in trouble?
by Resurrection Man Replies
317
Views
4,000

"And so what? If they have the education and experience it doesn't matter where they come from. To discount them simply because they come from a public school background is surely the sign of a bigot?"

that I was a bigot, and in fact I hadn't said anything at all about public schoolboys.. I thought I should give you another chance to respond.I may be many things but I really hope I am not a bigot.

As regards VC's thoughts.....I really don't know the technicalities. But in general governments are in the business of downplaying radiation dangers.in any case, hand on heart, and in terms of risk, would you rather live 5 miles from Fukushima or anywhere in Cornwall? I know where I would choose.

[teamsaint]

Which brings us nicely round, VC, to Lovelace's commonsense comments on the radio the other day!

TS....no comment or examples?

Even Wikipedia quotes a source who suggests that 1000 people will die.(and Wikipedia is prone to down playing this kind of risk).Just because one scientist says something on R4, doesn't mean it is true.

[Serial_Apologist]

Even Wikipedia quotes a source who suggests that 1000 people will die.(and Wikipedia is prone to down playing this kind of risk).Just because one scientist says something on R4, doesn't mean it is true.

Articles on Chernobyl, such as this one, suggest the whole issue remains very much an open-ended one:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,411684,00.html

[Budapest]

I've no idea about Blackpool (I've been out of the UK for too long) but do have some knowledge of what's going on in Japan, most of which has not been reported at all in the UK media, probably because the UK government, like the US government, is embarking on building more nuclear power stations.

Last December, just before Christmas, the Japanese Prime Minister, Yoshihiko Noda, announced that the three crippled nuclear reactors at Fukushima had been stabilised and were in cold shutdown (see here). It all sounded like the crisis was over, but of course it wasn’t, because the Japanese government and TEPCO (Tokyo Electric Power Company) have lied throughout this crisis.

The situation, as far as we know, is as follows: reactors 1, 2 and 3 at Fukushima Daiichi have totally melted down. This happened during the first week or so of the crisis, in March 2011. The Japanese authorities didn't admit to the meltdown of all three reactors until six months later. The only information that the rest of the world gets about what's happening at Fukushima comes from TEPCO and the Japanese government. TEPCO is widely acknowledged to be corrupt and incompetent, and the Japanese government have told lie after lie about Fukushima.

What they have told us is that they don't know what's happening with the molten cores of reactors 1 and 3, because radiation levels are so high that no one can get anywhere near them, not even robots, which break down in the lethal radioactivity. They have managed to get probes into reactor 2 on two occasions. All this has really shown is that the reactor 2 containment vessel has been breached and that the corium (molten nuclear fuel) has moved down to the concrete containment chamber below. There is no known technology that can remove the corium from reactors 1, 2 and 3, so all they can do is wait decades (repeat: decades) for it to cool down enough to handle (the Chernobyl corium is still too lethal to be able to remove; not that they've got anywhere to put it once they remove it). I need hardly remind folks that the three Fukushima reactors that have melted down are just a few hundred yards from the Pacific Ocean. Whether reactor cores 1 and 3 have melted through the final 8 feet of concrete in their containment chambers is anyone's guess (we've never been in this situation before). What is certain is that fission is still taking place in the corium of all three reactors (ie, they will remain very hot and very radioactive for a very long time to come) and all three containment chambers are structually damaged and are leaking radioactivity into the environment. This is not a 'cold shutdown', it's a major disaster that humanity does not have the technology to cope with.

Out of sight and out of mind, but what has been in the news recently is the reactor 4 spent fuel pool, which is in danger of either losing its cooling water or of collapsing completely. This post will get way too long if I go into that, so instead a link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...er-earthquakes

People are now also talking about the reactor 3 spent fuel pool. I've no idea why, because No.3 pool was blown apart by a huge explosion on 14th March 2011, three days after the crisis began (No.3 reactor used MOX fuel: 3 to 5% plutonium); that's where most of the airborn radiation has thus far come from. Anyhows, that's the situation at the moment at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, and the only information we can go on is what TEPCO and the Japanese government tell us, most of whom should be in jail.

If you're having fish and chips for dinner tonight, turn out the lights and see if they glow in the dark.

[amateur51]

Many thanks for your recent post Budapest and for the links S_A.

All very chilling stuff - I'm speechless that UK govt. is planning to go full steam ahead with nuclear when this information is 'out there'!

[Budapest]

amateur51, this article shows the most recent photo that TEPCO have released of the interior of reactor No.2. http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...diation-levels. It was taken in March by a robot probe.

I know it's a bit of a weird photo, and it was taken near the bottom of the reactor vessel. There does appear to be one fuel rod visible. There were 584 fuel rods (weighing about 90 tons) in reactor No.2 on 11th March 2011. Also, there's only a few feet of water left in the reactor (the water both moderates and cools the fuel rods and should fill the entire reactor). According to TEPCO, some of the sensors in reactors 1, 2 and 3 are still working and TEPCO regularly publish temperature readings taken inside these reactors. Anything below 100C is generally taken as meaning a 'cold shutdown'. Reactors 1, 2 and 3 meet this criteria, thus allowing TEPCO to perpetuate the myth of a cold shutdown; but of course the fuel rods are no longer in the reactors: they've melted into molten corium, breached the reactor vessels and have dropped down below to the concrete containment chamber. No one knows what is happening down there.

Even the BBC, which throughout the Fukushima crisis has trotted out a long line of pro-nuclear lobbyists to 'explain things' (see here), has started to report what is actually going on...

Probe finds high radiation in damaged Fukushima reactor

If any good has come out of the horror of Fukushima Daiichi it's that it will mean the end of uranium fueled nuclear power. Japan shut down the last of its 54 reactors a week ago (and surprise, surprise the lights in Japan are still on). It seems highly unlikely that they will ever be started up again. Shortly after the Fukushima disater began, Germany announced that it was going to close down its 12 reactors, and Francois Hollande has just been elected President of France with, amongst other things, a promise to close many nuclear power plants.

[amateur51]

amateur51, this article shows the most recent photo that TEPCO have released of the interior of reactor No.2. http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...diation-levels. It was taken in March by a robot probe.

I know it's a bit of a weird photo, and it was taken near the bottom of the reactor vessel. There does appear to be one fuel rod visible. There were 584 fuel rods (weighing about 90 tons) in reactor No.2 on 11th March 2011. Also, there's only a few feet of water left in the reactor (the water both moderates and cools the fuel rods and should fill the entire reactor). According to TEPCO, some of the sensors in reactors 1, 2 and 3 are still working and TEPCO regularly publish temperature readings taken inside these reactors. Anything below 100C is generally taken as meaning a 'cold shutdown'. Reactors 1, 2 and 3 meet this criteria, thus allowing TEPCO to perpetuate the myth of a cold shutdown; but of course the fuel rods are no longer in the reactors: they've melted into molten corium, breached the reactor vessels and have dropped down below to the concrete containment chamber. No one knows what is happening down there.

Even the BBC, which throughout the Fukushima crisis has trotted out a long line of pro-nuclear lobbyists to 'explain things' (see here), has started to report what is actually going on...

Probe finds high radiation in damaged Fukushima reactor

If any good has come out of the horror of Fukushima Daiichi it's that it will mean the end of uranium fueled nuclear power. Japan shut down the last of its 54 reactors a week ago (and surprise, surprise the lights in Japan are still on). It seems highly unlikely that they will ever be started up again. Shortly after the Fukushima disater began, Germany announced that it was going to close down its 12 reactors, and Francois Hollande has just been elected President of France with, amongst other things, a promise to close many nuclear power plants.

Again, many thanks Budapest - I may not sleep tonight but many thanks all the same!

[teamsaint]

Budapest, thank you for taking so much time to make your comments.
I don't know much about the technical side of nuclear power......but sadly I am not surprised at the information you provide.
Another good effect of reduced reliance on our current nuclear power sources would be reduced production of weapons grade plutonium..at least that is what I understand.

[Frances_iom]

..
Another good effect of reduced reliance on our current nuclear power sources would be reduced production of weapons grade plutonium..at least that is what I understand.

not unless the operatonal mode was changed - you need a shorter irradiation time to produce the weapons grade Plutonium without additional products that make extraction more difficult.

[Budapest]

Einstein came up with some good quotes. My favourite, if I remember correctly, goes something like: 'everything changed when we split the atom, except man's stupidity'.

You don't necessarily need a nuclear reactor to produce material to make nuclear weapons, but it helps. You can get uranium 235 (bomb material) by using centrifuges, but it's a very large scale and expensive process that can only really be carried out by those who have vast amounts of tax payer's money to spend. It's slightly cheaper to produce uranium 235 in a reactor; but when it comes to bangs for your buck (ie, large weapons of mass destruction) you can't beat Plutonium 239, which can only be produced by a nuclear reactor.

Incidentally, the corium I've been talking about (molten nuclear fuel) is of intense interest to scientists because there are elements in it that have never existed before. Government funded studies of the Chernobyl corium (it'll be many decades before they can get anywhere close to the Fukushima corium) is of course centred around whether these new elements can be used for nuclear bombs.

The lunatics took over the asylum a long time ago.