Posh Boys in trouble?

[ahinton]

Money talks?

But I don't think that this is even a point that requires proof or illustration in the first place (any more than it was being suggesed that money did other than talk); what was being discussed here was private schools and schooling which, whilst they often presume the need for money, are by no means the exclusive province of the wealthy any more than state education has any kind of monopoly on the less wealthy.

[french frank]

Then I misunderstood. I thought it was a humorous intervention pertaining to the general theme of the influence of money in the governance of the country atm, rather than, narrowly, about educational background. My apologies.

[MrGongGong]

It wasn't meant to be a totally "serious" philosophical point !!

There is a lot of defensiveness around private schools (not that I personally have anything against them) these days. I guess some peoples idea of what "wealthy" means is different to mine.
but one of the real issues (a bit like the Oxbridge thing ) is that there is an assumption that because one pays for something that it is automatically better, for everyone , always. The assumption that somehow a subject like Music is universally dreadful in state schools and universally excellent in private ones really is "received wisdom" rather than based on any broad experience. In truth some of each are great and some of each are useless which falls down to individuals more than policy.
However, because of this assumption that somehow private schooling is universally better, people seem more willing to trust to politicians who "wear those clothes". It is interesting that governments insist that class sizes have nothing to do with the quality of education yet almost without exception send their children to schools with class sizes of around 14 ! So much for the credibility of that argument then

(and whilst I have no real objection to private schooling I kind of object to funding them through charitable status when they are clearly businesses )

[ahinton]

Then I misunderstood. I thought it was a humorous intervention pertaining to the general theme of the influence of money in the governance of the country atm, rather than, narrowly, about educational background. My apologies.

No problem! Not having raised the point about private education myself, I don't know what exactly might originally have motivated the reference to it in the context under discussion at the point when it was raised. Specifically, I am less than convinced that the "posh boys" in question would have seemed any less "posh" to those inclined to describe them as such had they attended grammar or comprehensive schools instead of private ones. That said, I am rather reminded of someone I know who, having sent all four of her children to state schools, remarked to me that the sheer costs of doing so turned out to be not so very much less than that of sending them as day scholars to the local private school!

[MrGongGong]

That said, I am rather reminded of someone I know who, having sent all four of her children to state schools, remarked to me that the sheer costs of doing so turned out to be not so very much less than that of sending them as day scholars to the local private school!

??? how come

[ahinton]

It wasn't meant to be a totally "serious" philosophical point !!

I couldn't be sure at the time of reading it but I suppose that I'm not surprised!

There is a lot of defensiveness around private schools (not that I personally have anything against them) these days. I guess some peoples idea of what "wealthy" means is different to mine.
but one of the real issues (a bit like the Oxbridge thing ) is that there is an assumption that because one pays for something that it is automatically better, for everyone , always. The assumption that somehow a subject like Music is universally dreadful in state schools and universally excellent in private ones really is "received wisdom" rather than based on any broad experience. In truth some of each are great and some of each are useless which falls down to individuals more than policy.

I agree entirely with you here - and music education in certain private schools is indeed quite shamefully inadequate!

However, because of this assumption that somehow private schooling is universally better, people seem more willing to trust to politicians who "wear those clothes". It is interesting that governments insist that class sizes have nothing to do with the quality of education yet almost without exception send their children to schools with class sizes of around 14 ! So much for the credibility of that argument then

True, but this is respectively down to gullibility on the part of certain members of the public and hypocrisy on the part of certain politicians!

(and whilst I have no real objection to private schooling I kind of object to funding them through charitable status when they are clearly businesses )

A difficult one, this; I take your point, but if, for example, the recent kerfuffle about reducing tax relief on charitable contributions were to affect such businesses were to continue, there would be incresing arguments about the state interfering with private education and risking increases in the overcrowding of already overcrowded state schools. That said, most charities are businesses, not just private educational establishments; they have to be run like businesses and generate profits (including but not limited to the donations that they receive), albeit for reinvestment into their operations, otherwise they'd eventually have no powers to do what they set out to do.

[ahinton]

??? how come

Books and other educational materials, sports and other kit, contributions to the funding of the school (including maintenance of its buildings) - you name it! I daresay it's not meant to be ,ike this and almost certainly isn't in every state school, but there's no denying that every aspect of state education is not guaranteed to be "free at the point of sale", as the cliché has it.

[MrGongGong]

Books and other educational materials, sports and other kit, contributions to the funding of the school (including maintenance of its buildings) - you name it! I daresay it's not meant to be ,ike this and almost certainly isn't in every state school, but there's no denying that every aspect of state education is not guaranteed to be "free at the point of sale", as the cliché has it.

I think there's a bit of "over egging" going on
do you get "free" books and sports kit at Eaton ?

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

it is about capture isn't it .... the capture of power by a self seeking/protecting social group at the expense of the greater number or the mass of people .... given the appalling and ceaseless meaningless political interventions in public education in the last forty years or so this capture thesis might have a point ...when Andrew Neill and i were lads grammar school lads [even as dysfunctional as (me or i which?)] could get on in life into parliament even, run a newspaper, sit next to god at the treasury without paying £kkkkk pa in school fees ... no longer the case ...

in whose interest do they govern and how exactly does someone like Alan Duncan represent me, my interests or beliefs .... now it might be simple minded to say that they have to be of us to represent us but there is a safeguard in that i would not ask a publicke schoole PPE Oxbridge Spaddie to make a cuppa never mind represent my interests ... never mind the normal run of the mill tory spiv like Duncan ...

even worse are all these petite bourgeoisie with two tone shirts or similar ladies from 'minor' schools running business and councils .... a middle classs defined by private education becomes very self sealing .. for a brief few years that was not the case in britain and look what happened ... the post war boom led by the generation who went to secondary schools created by the 1944 act and the colleges of technology and art produced the greatest outburst of creative change in this land in centuries ... grammar school kids in the main ...

[ahinton]

I think there's a bit of "over egging" going on
do you get "free" books and sports kit at Eaton ?

No - no over-egging (and I don't know what schools might offer free eggs). By "Eaton" I presume you to mean "Eton" and I've never suggested that anything for which a state school might either charge or expect a parent or scholar to fund him/herself would be "free" in Eton or indeed any other private school; my point was merely to illustrate how state education is not always all free at the point of sale, as some people believe - no more, no less.

[ahinton]

it is about capture isn't it .... the capture of power by a self seeking/protecting social group at the expense of the greater number or the mass of people .... given the appalling and ceaseless meaningless political interventions in public education in the last forty years or so this capture thesis might have a point ...when Andrew Neill and i were lads grammar school lads [even as dysfunctional as (me or i which?)] could get on in life into parliament even, run a newspaper, sit next to god at the treasury without paying £kkkkk pa in school fees ... no longer the case ...

in whose interest do they govern and how exactly does someone like Alan Duncan represent me, my interests or beliefs .... now it might be simple minded to say that they have to be of us to represent us but there is a safeguard in that i would not ask a publicke schoole PPE Oxbridge Spaddie to make a cuppa never mind represent my interests ... never mind the normal run of the mill tory spiv like Duncan ...

even worse are all these petite bourgeoisie with two tone shirts or similar ladies from 'minor' schools running business and councils .... a middle classs defined by private education becomes very self sealing .. for a brief few years that was not the case in britain and look what happened ... the post war boom led by the generation who went to secondary schools created by the 1944 act and the colleges of technology and art produced the greatest outburst of creative change in this land in centuries ... grammar school kids in the main ...

You mention Oxbridge but without distinguishing between those who attend either university having been privately educated and those who do so following a state education, of which there are, of course, plenty.

How anyone might represent an individual's interests in Parliament is still down to how good they are at it and how willing they are to do it, not what school they attended, especially in the cases of MPs who have benefitted from a good quality state education. You write that "a middle classs defined by private education becomes very self sealing" which, insofar as it goes, is perfectly logical; what you don't add, however, is how any such definition becomes the accepted standard and this is another matter altogether that is generally down to complacency, gullibility and wilful received opinion absorption on the part of those people who are prepared to accept such a definition as though it were correct and should be so.

[Flosshilde]

How anyone might represent an individual's interests in Parliament is still down to how good they are at it and how willing they are to do it, not what school they attended,

To represent people - the mass of people - they need to have knowledge, experience, understanding of what most people's lives are like. The 'posh boys' exhibit none of this - they grew up & were educated in a sealed world, they have not had jobs where they encountered 'ordinary' people, they have made no attempt to find out what people's lives are like. As Mr GG has said in another thread, in an area where Mr Cameron might have developed some empathy & understanding he has exhibited none, & made people's lives immeasurably more difficult.

I'm afraid your attempts to defend private schools & the people who use them - to buy privilege & access for their children - are really on a hiding to nothing.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

no i think ah makes a fair point in logic but the trouble is his argument does not scale up .... yes it may be so but not in the great majority of instances that a fair and competent representation is attained through a member of an outgroup ... but the main case that it is usually safer to rely on one of your own still stands ... one could not argue that an exception to the main point is untrue but one may argue that although true it makes little practical difference ie that we remain governed by a self sealing cadre of 'posh' and rather incompetent young men in all the main parties .... and that one strata in consequence represents everybody

and to be fair ii think their youth counts for more now than their background ... they are too raw to crisis .... they are being educated for the next one whilst the present circumstance drags us towards an abyss ...

hateful as the thought is, we might be better served by a return or re-engagement of Blair ....[and Darling]

[aeolium]

hateful as the thought is we might be better served by a return or re-engagement of Blair

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!



My blood pressure wouldn't stand it, Calum. Let him grub around the world for his dirty millions. He has ruined enough lives.

[handsomefortune]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!



My blood pressure wouldn't stand it, Calum. Let him grub around the world for his dirty millions. He has ruined enough lives.

seconded aeolium!