Posh Boys in trouble?

[MrGongGong]

And another thing, MrGG, you use loaded language like 'betrayal' and 'lie'.

So I guess they were talking about furniture polish then ?

I always understood lying as attempting to deceive....... if you say you believe in something
maybe you don't just have a vague support but you make a PLEDGE in line with that belief
then when it comes to the point of making a decision you do the opposite
then (and it might not be in law , ok ) IMV you lied in the first place when you said you believed in it ..............

Surely the Liberals know how much belief costs sometimes ?

"loaded" language indeed........ like

"we promise"
"we aren't like the all the rest"
"we are honest"

etc etc which bits are we supposed to trust and which are just puff to get our support ?

Blair lied to us about WMD
and Clegg lied (or was duplicitous, or dishonest...... whatever it matters little since he got into bed with the tories ) about tuition fees

[John Skelton]

There's no reason to think that they didn't believe that voting against a rise in fees would be possible and that they would do so.

Agreed, though this http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...ion-fees-clegg might suggest they weren't that keen to hang on to it.

A month before Clegg pledged in April to scrap the "dead weight of debt", a secret team of key Lib Dems made clear that, in the event of a hung parliament, the party would not waste political capital defending its manifesto pledge to abolish university tuition fees within six years. In a document marked "confidential" and dated 16 March, the head of the secret pre-election coalition negotiating team, Danny Alexander, wrote: "On tuition fees we should seek agreement on part-time students and leave the rest. We will have clear yellow water with the other [parties] on raising the tuition fee cap, so let us not cause ourselves more headaches."

A Lib Dem spokesman said tonight: "These are selective extracts of documents which discussed a range of options ahead of any possible negotiations. As the Liberal Democrats made clear throughout the election and in negotiations, they had four key priorities which were set out on the front page of the manifesto. All of these priorities were agreed in the coalition document. The nature of the coalition agreement has meant we were able to set the foundations for a stable five-year government that will deliver many of the priorities the Liberal Democrats have long supported."

Clegg tried to downgrade the pledge to abolish tuition fees at the 2009 party conference, prompting a backlash from the left. A plan to abolish them over six years was included in the general election manifesto.

I'm afraid I think the people planning the election campaign thought it could be a middle-class parent vote winner (more than having an eye on the student vote) and were never keen on it as practical policy.

[amateur51]

The psychology is interesting: there really is a two-party mentality when people can within two years forget Labour's broken promises, forget the Iraq war, forget the beginning of the privatisation of the NHS, forget the introduction of tuition fees, forget the relaxation in the banking regulations ... Where did the 'justifiable anger' go?

Not so much forgetting as misremembering ... that the relaxation of banking regs started with Nigel Lawson; that the Tories were as gung-ho for war as Tony Bliar, altho' the LibDems did behave splendidly; that Nicko absolutely on his grannie's life promised no tuition fees etc. So in the end we needed to be angry with everyone, the whole political class..

Except of course with Mr Broon who not only kept us out of the Euro but he also 'saved the world' when the banking collapse hit - be fair

[amateur51]

Yes. It usually is the leadership.

I suppose I feel, hmmm, well, I don't feel much really. But the idea that the LibDems betrayed the students seems unreal, since they never had the power to deliver anything in the first place, except, as I've said, the empty gesture.

aka a whopping great fib in order to get votes!

[amateur51]

And another thing, MrGG, you use loaded language like 'betrayal' and 'lie'. But making a promise which in the end you don't keep isn't a lie. The word 'lie' is used of saying something you knew wasn't true but you said it to deceive. You can say that you think that's the case with all the LibDem MPs. But you don't have evidence. In fact, no one could have predicted that there would be a coalition which was the crucial factor that bound all those holding ministerial posts. There's no reason to think that they didn't believe that voting against a rise in fees would be possible and that they would do so.

The fact that you don't believe that doesn't mean you're right.

And vice versa - this is top-class sophistry imho

[amateur51]

Correct me if my memory's playing tricks, but I seem to remember that the comentariat had been predicting a close finish for several months; as third party the LibDems would surely have calculated for this possibility, especially with the LibLab Pact in the historical memory?

And we know that they'd been plotting/planning for coalition for months so why nmake an empty 'gesture'? Oh so they'd get people voting for them on that basis so that might give them extra seats when the coalition became necessary? That's crafty innit

[amateur51]

.... which bits are we supposed to trust and which are just puff to get our support ?

Blair lied to us about WMD
and Clegg lied (or was duplicitous, or dishonest...... whatever it matters little since he got into bed with the tories ) about tuition fees

[Lateralthinking1]

Agreed, though this http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...ion-fees-clegg might suggest they weren't that keen to hang on to it.

There will be pressure on the LDs at the next election to say which of their manifesto commitments they would be willing to drop. They won't do it as they will argue it will depend on the election result. It has worked for them in the past but not this time.

Journalists will focus particularly on the areas of fundamental disagreement at conferences between the membership and the leadership. They will look again carefully at the writing of David Laws, an individual who is probably still far more influential than it appears. I would argue that Danny Alexander is his alter ego, dubious in policy and public commitments, if deceptively bland.

Nothing less than a manifesto of three sections will be good enough. Section 1 - If There is a Lib Dem Government. Section 2 - If There is Coalition with Labour. Section 3 - If There is Coalition with the Conservatives. That, of course, won't happen.

While Clegg is "sad" that they lost so many councillors, he will in private be relieved by the 16%. No doubt he will see that as the lowest level of support they will get at a General Election. If so, he is wrong. Lib Dem councillors are often well liked, he is loathed, and a single figure percentage is guaranteed. I reckon 9% if they are fortunate. All entirely unforgivable. Tragic really.

[MrGongGong]

All entirely unforgivable. Tragic really.

indeed
which is why it is all so sad
for almost the first time in my life it seemed possible that things might actually change
we might get a representative democracy
we might get a change from the usual b*llocks
but alas they turned out to just like all the rest ..............

[Serial_Apologist]

indeed
which is why it is all so sad
for almost the first time in my life it seemed possible that things might actually change
we might get a representative democracy
we might get a change from the usual b*llocks
but alas they turned out to just like all the rest ..............

I think it was GBS who said the only sin in divorce consisted in the prior sin of marriage, so, if the same could be said of disillusionment, don't worry, Mr GG - Jonathan Harvey's Wagner opera is shortly to begin on Radio 3.

[MrGongGong]

I think it was GBS who said the only sin in divorce consisted in the prior sin of marriage, so, if the same could be said of disillusionment, don't worry, Mr GG - Jonathan Harvey's Wagner opera is shortly to begin on Radio 3.

Bloody marvellous

[french frank]

aka a whopping great fib in order to get votes!

No, that's either redefining the meaning of 'fib' or inventing secret motives which - even if correct - you couldn't know about. It keeps repeating the GongGong mantra and doesn't address the answer I made to this: that a coalition (rather than a pact) was not foreseen by anyone.

On the subject of 'misremembering' the perception seems to be that large swathes of the country voted for the LibDems because of their stance on tuition fees (whatever it was). Or if not large swathes, at least so many that they ended up with five seats fewer than before the election.

Thinking back - and with submission, sir - I'd say that the prevailing mood of the floating voters was that they'd had enough of Brown and Labour and wanted a change. Most would switch directly from Labour to Tory. In some constituencies where LibDems were the only credible rivals to Labour, they voted LibDem. Tuition fees weren't a deciding issue for the average voter.

But the problem is the public perception - as the man said, perceptions, even when they are wrong, are always 'true'. And I won't insult you by suggesting your perceptions aren't 'true', amsy!

[MrGongGong]

OK

lets put it another way
Would YOU choose mr Clegg as scissor monitor ?

[amateur51]

No, that's either redefining the meaning of 'fib' or inventing secret motives which - even if correct - you couldn't know about. It keeps repeating the GongGong mantra and doesn't address the answer I made to this: that a coalition (rather than a pact) was not foreseen by anyone....

But the problem is the public perception - as the man said, perceptions, even when they are wrong, are always 'true'. And I won't insult you by suggesting your perceptions aren't 'true', amsy!

Please miss, we already know that the LibDems had been making plans for the possibility of a coalition so please don't come the old coal ..

And thanks for laying off my perceptions, french frank - and I'll lay orf yours

[amateur51]

OK

lets put it another way
Would YOU choose mr Clegg as scissor monitor ?