Pedants' Paradise

[french frank]

They have now.

By jove, so they have! Triomphe!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Not so much pedantry, but a question to those who've a knowledge of language development.

Farther/Further

Nowadays "further" is used almost universally, but in the literature of Jonathan Swift, Jane Austen and Walt Whitman, "farther" is the word that is used.

Of course, there's less likelihood of confusion with "further", as it is unlikely to be confused with a male parent, but I would like to know more about this.

[Bryn]

Not so much pedantry, but a question to those who've a knowledge of language development.

Farther/Further

Nowadays "further" is used almost universally, but in the literature of Jonathan Swift, Jane Austen and Walt Whitman, "farther" is the word that is used.

Of course, there's less likelihood of confusion with "further", as it is unlikely to be confused with a male parent, but I would like to know more about this.

"Farther" is best used in relation to physical distance while "further" is more appositely used regarding metaphysical applications. There are further references to this issue to be found via Internet searches.

[Pabmusic]

Not so much pedantry, but a question to those who've a knowledge of language development.

Farther/Further

Nowadays "further" is used almost universally, but in the literature of Jonathan Swift, Jane Austen and Walt Whitman, "farther" is the word that is used.

Of course, there's less likelihood of confusion with "further", as it is unlikely to be confused with a male parent, but I would like to know more about thuis.

I shall see if I can find the source of this after several years, but I recall that there is evidence that proto-Indo-European had a complex system of vowel changes within words that was gradually replaced in newer languages by more simple inflexions. But the most commonly used among these are still with us - sing, sang, sung, song, for instance. Maybe further/farther is connected (the fact that modern usage gives subtly different meanings doesn't really answer your point - they are just useful developments).

Then again there's Great Vowel Shift fallout that left two versions of the same word - merchant and marchant, for instance, or clerk and clark. Or indeed (though it's not the vowel that shifted) shirt/shift/skirt.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

"Farther" is best used in relation to physical distance while "further" is more appositely used regarding metaphysical applications. There are further references to this issue to be found via Internet searches.

Yes, I’ve looked at those references (which largely apply to US English) but in practice, “farther” has fallen into disuse, while is “Sense and Sensibility”, the opposite is true.

[vinteuil]

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... Alpie - I very much recommend you look at the several pages on farther/further in the 1996 edn of The New Fowler's Modern English Usage, which explore in detail the etymology and evolving usage patterns of both forms.

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[Eine Alpensinfonie]

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... Alpie - I very much recommend you look at the several pages on farther/further in the 1996 edn of The New Fowler's Modern English Usage, which explore in detail the etymology and evolving usage patterns of both forms.

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[gurnemanz]

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... Alpie - I very much recommend you look at the several pages on farther/further in the 1996 edn of The New Fowler's Modern English Usage, which explore in detail the etymology and evolving usage patterns of both forms.

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Interesting to read Fowler. It had never occurred to me that further/farther are actually related to "forth" not "far" It seems that the original but now obsolete comparative "farrer" was driven out by those forms. I would think that "forth" has only ever been an adverb, as in "he went forth" (he went away). This must have led to "he went forther", ie he kept on going. Somehow farther/further came also to be used adjectivally. Any further questions?

[teamsaint]

When to leave out the word " That".

https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/when-to-leave-out-that

It vaguely irritates me when it is left out in a formal context, EG BBC news report. It probably shouldn't.

[Pulcinella]

When to leave out the word " That".

https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/when-to-leave-out-that

It vaguely irritates me when it is left out in a formal context, EG BBC news report. It probably shouldn't.

It really annoys me too.
But on the other hand, I would also add a comma BEFORE the 'if' in one of the examples:

You also need to ensure you don’t accidentally put in a double that. This sentence is not right: “Natalie knows that if she doesn’t remember to feed her fish that the poor little guy will die.” It needs just one that, the first one: “Natalie knows that if she doesn’t remember to feed her fish, the poor little guy will die.” A comma after “fish” will help readers understand the sentence.

I would write:
“Natalie knows that, if she doesn’t remember to feed her fish, the poor little guy will die.”

Indeed, I'd write:
You also need to ensure THAT you don't accidentally......

I like the advice from the AP guide:
The AP Stylebook, which is typically used by journalists, suggests you use a that when in doubt (2). It advises, “Omission can hurt. Inclusion never does.”

That's how I treat the so-called Oxford comma, too.

[Pulcinella]

Nice useful website, ts.
I've just looked up the entry on 'like' (comparison) instead of 'such as' (inclusion), which also annoys me and which I wanted to explain to an Italian friend whose translations I am sometimes asked to comment on.

https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/like-versus-such-as

[french frank]

Just wondering: how is one supposed to pronounce Flybmi? Fly B.M.I.? (I've never heard it said )

[Mal]

That sounds right, from a Google video search:

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/flybmi-failure-airline-collapse-brexit-competition-passenger-rights-a8783031.html

[french frank]

That sounds right, from a Google video search:

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel...-a8783031.html

Hmmm. And I'd always mentally pronounced flybe fly-bee, but I suppose that might be Fly B.E.

[Serial_Apologist]

Hmmm. And I'd always mentally pronounced flybe fly-bee, but I suppose that might be Fly B.E.

If it's Fly Body Mass Index, it's no wonder the form has fallen out of the sky!