Pedants' Paradise

[jean]

The current protests by Americal footballers refusing to stand for the National Anthem are described as taking the/a knee - a phrase I'd never heard nefore, but which has a meaning within the game.

It does seem a bit strange that genuflection should be a sign of disrespect when in other contexts it's the opposite!

[vinteuil]

Fellow pedants may enjoy this tweet:

"I see that you have made 3 spelling mistakes."

Last words of Marquis de Favras after reading his death sentence before being hanged (1790).

[Tweet from Klaas Meijer @klaasm67]

... the French seem good at pedantic last words - famously the grammarian Dominique Bouhours [1628 - 1702]

« Je m'en vais, je m'en vas , l'un ou l'autre se dit, l'un ou l'autre se disent. »

[Bryn]

... the French seem good at pedantic last words - famously the grammarian Dominique Bouhours [1628 - 1702]

« Je m'en vais, je m'en vas , l'un ou l'autre se dit, l'un ou l'autre se disent. »

As Billy and Johnny might say, "We know a song about that, don't we)?

[kernelbogey]

[...] It does seem a bit strange that genuflection should be a sign of disrespect when in other contexts it's the opposite!

Surely a sign of honourable protest by those kneeling; disrespect being the view by others of this gesture.

(My understanding is that it is not intended to disrespect the flag or the national anthem but to make a statement about race.)

[ardcarp]

Nice bit for pedants/non-pedants alike towards the end of the PM Programme on Radio 4 today:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b095pt2k

Begins approx 50 minutes from the start.

[Lat-Literal]

Have just watched Angela Rayner's latest performance on Question Time. While she may have more integrity than some who are capable of accurate English and others who are clever-clever with the language, I find it immensely depressing - and sad - that an Education Secretary in waiting uses the word "is" rather than "are" after every plural and says "ameliate" rather than ameliorate". It is an embarrassing - and shocking - indictment on our country as a whole and the way in which it will put up with almost anything if it is crass.

[french frank]

and says "ameliate" rather than ameliorate".

'Ameliate' is a fascinating one because the English stress patterns make it possible to say 'ameliorate' in such a way that it sounds exactly like 'ameliate'. It sounds subtly different from how it would sound if the same person were to say, very firmly - and intend to say - 'ameliate'. The second syllable is stressed perhaps a little too strongly so that the following 'or' becomes a kind of verbal dog-whistle.

The polysyllables often create difficulty and you also hear people mis-stressing in order to make sure every syllable is clearly pronounced: so momentÁrily, veterÍnary. When correctly stressed, unstressed syllables tend to get lost.

Though not having heard the person, I cannot be sure she didn't simply say 'ameliate': I merely express my immediate thoughts I would say amÉli-orate …

[jean]

That's rather my view, too.

The very poshest pronunciations often make a feature of omitting syllables altogether. I remember observing a TEFL lesson where the student teacher spent ages trying to elicit veg'table without the e. I wouldn't have bothered!

[french frank]

the student teacher spent ages trying to elicit veg'table without the e.

But certainly not vegÉtable!

[Pulcinella]

But certainly not vegÉtable!

Sadly, for me some veg just isn't eatable!

[gurnemanz]

Have just watched Angela Rayner's latest performance on Question Time. While she may have more integrity than some who are capable of accurate English and others who are clever-clever with the language, I find it immensely depressing - and sad - that an Education Secretary in waiting uses the word "is" rather than "are" after every plural and says "ameliate" rather than ameliorate". It is an embarrassing - and shocking - indictment on our country as a whole and the way in which it will put up with almost anything if it is crass.

I was struck by that too. I'm afraid her diction was generally not good. However, I'm sure that many of us might come out with something like "ameliate" when talking fast in an informal conversational situation, when precise enunciation of all syllables often goes out of the window. This is a typical feature of spoken English, which is a a stress-timed language, i.e. longer polysyllabic words are squeezed into the same space as monosyllabic ones with the same syntactic function in order not to change the basic sentence rhythm.

"This is a good point."
"This is an int'resting point."
(the time taken by these two sentences will be roughly the same despite one having more syllables.)

"The government can't fix the problem."

If the speaker decides to use "ameliorate" instead of fix, the natural tendency would be to cram it into the same time space and to condense its syllables to achieve this. (We'n'sday, Thursday is a similar instance.)

Having said all that, I still think that in the more formal context of a TV debate, the speaker should make a conscious effort to enunciate clearly.

[Serial_Apologist]

The polysyllables often create difficulty and you also hear people mis-stressing in order to make sure every syllable is clearly pronounced: so momentÁrily, veterÍnary. When correctly stressed, unstressed syllables tend to get lost.

"Febry" being the first example that always comes to my mind.

[jean]

Does anybody pronounce the first d in Wednesday?

You're not even supposed to!

The OED says:

Pronunciation: Brit. /ˈwɛnzdeɪ/, /ˈwɛnzdi/.

[Lat-Literal]

'Ameliate' is a fascinating one because the English stress patterns make it possible to say 'ameliorate' in such a way that it sounds exactly like 'ameliate'. It sounds subtly different from how it would sound if the same person were to say, very firmly - and intend to say - 'ameliate'. The second syllable is stressed perhaps a little too strongly so that the following 'or' becomes a kind of verbal dog-whistle.

The polysyllables often create difficulty and you also hear people mis-stressing in order to make sure every syllable is clearly pronounced: so momentÁrily, veterÍnary. When correctly stressed, unstressed syllables tend to get lost.

Though not having heard the person, I cannot be sure she didn't simply say 'ameliate': I merely express my immediate thoughts I would say amÉli-orate …

I was struck by that too. I'm afraid her diction was generally not good. However, I'm sure that many of us might come out with something like "ameliate" when talking fast in an informal conversational situation, when precise enunciation of all syllables often goes out of the window. This is a typical feature of spoken English, which is a a stress-timed language, i.e. longer polysyllabic words are squeezed into the same space as monosyllabic ones with the same syntactic function in order not to change the basic sentence rhythm.

"This is a good point."
"This is an int'resting point."
(the time taken by these two sentences will be roughly the same despite one having more syllables.)

"The government can't fix the problem."

If the speaker decides to use "ameliorate" instead of fix, the natural tendency would be to cram it into the same time space and to condense its syllables to achieve this. (We'n'sday, Thursday is a similar instance.)

Having said all that, I still think that in the more formal context of a TV debate, the speaker should make a conscious effort to enunciate clearly.

Interesting points french frank and gurnemanz for which thanks.

I could almost hear an upper middle class "thing" in "moment'rily" etc while "momentarily" with a strong accent on the "air" as I would say probably reveals more basic family origins. But with Ms Rayner, every interview is peppered with oddities like "our plans is", an obvious mispronunciation of words and Mancunian street phraseology which sits somewhere between Liam Gallagher and Coronation Street. If she is effective on policy, I am not against her being a Shadow Secretary of State of anything other than Education but as it is I feel as a listener as if she and her party are taking the mick (although that is unlikely to be their motive). I think it reflects badly on them and badly on the country as a whole.

(Whatever the case, she is certainly no Estelle Morris who in turn was not a Barbara Castle or Jennie Lee or all the other impressive Labour women of ordinary origins)

[french frank]

Does anybody pronounce the first d in Wednesday?

You're not even supposed to!

The OED says:

Pronunciation: Brit. /ˈwɛnzdeɪ/, /ˈwɛnzdi/.

This came up in a language tutorial when I was in Scotland, and one student was definite that she did pronounce the d. It's something I've often thought about and tried to replicate. dn is a tricky combination, because d and n are both dental consonants, aren't they. The d could be almost a glottal stop before the n which doesn't sound as a true consonant but 'feels' like one.