Pedants' Paradise

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

As jean had already pointed out: "I’ll tell you the weird thing about it,” Atwood told Time magazine about the quote this spring. “It was a joke in our Latin classes. So this thing from my childhood is permanently on people’s bodies.”

All that is required under the razor is that her adult memory got it wrong. Simplex optimus. Or optimum.

Or that it is an accurate memory, and her class (accidentally or deliberately) "invented" a new/inaccurate "Latin" expression. (Something that used to happen quite a bit in classes when I was "taught" Latin at Secondary school - some very rude results! Tell that to kids today and they ... ask if "Latin" was called "Modern Languages" in those days, little so-and-sos!)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

"So-and-sos"?

"So-and-soes"?

"So-and-so's"?

"So-and-si"???


?"illegitimi"?

[jean]

It was I who speculated (not very seriously) that the original version was rejected by feminists because they wished to dissociate themselves from General "Vinegar" Joe Stilwell who adopted it as his motto (see above) and to ally themselves as closely as they could with Atwood.

However, Occam's razor tells me that they only knew the version Atwood included in the book, and that she'd only included it because her memory of the original was at fault - and that neither of them was thinking about Vinegar Joe.

[jean]

Or that it is an accurate memory, and her class (accidentally or deliberately) "invented" a new/inaccurate "Latin" expression. (Something that used to happen quite a bit in classes when I was "taught" Latin at Secondary school - some very rude results!)

Occam's razor tells me that if either of those were the case, she'd have explained in the course of those interviews.

Occam's razor also tells me that the new version is unlikely to be an elaboration by her schoolmates since it gains nothing in terms of either cod-Latinity or rudeness.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Occam's razor tells me that if either of those were the case, she'd have explained in the course of those interviews.
Occam's razor also tells me that the new version is unlikely to be an elaboration by her schoolmates since it gains nothing in terms of either cod-Latinity or rudeness.

Whilst wishing to avoid getting in a strop, has Occam's razor any opinion about why, in the thirty-two years since the novel's publication, nobody has previously brought Ms Atwood's "error" to her attention (not the book's proof-readers, nor the committees of the Awards of the Governor General of Canada, the Arthur C Clarke, Nebula, Prometheus, nor that of the Booker Prize)?

[jean]

Occam's razor says nobody knows enough Latin to care.

Remember, the original isn't real Latin either. It just looks more like it than the bastard (sic) version in the book.

[french frank]

Occam's razor says nobody knows enough Latin to care.

Remember, the original isn't real Latin either. It just looks more like it than the bastard (sic) version in the book.

In my day we used Latin tags in proper Latin

Hic liber est meus
Testis est deus
Si quis furetur
Per collum pendetur

[Like this poor cretur - here a matchstick man hanging from a scaffold]

ferney is right, though: it would be equally simple to conclude that she remembered correctly what children had constructed incorrectly.

But, no, that wouldn't work either as it would presuppose that they had got Joe Stillwell's quote impossibly wrong or had independently come up with something very similar.

[ahinton]

Or Ockham's Razor. Names didn't have fixed forms in the 14th century.

...or even perhaps in the following century, so possibly Ockeghem's Razor could be another legitimate alternative...

[french frank]

...or even perhaps in the following century, so possibly Ockeghem's Razor could be another legitimate alternative...

Hardly. The Domesday form of Ockham, Surrey, is Bochehā (Bocheham):



But he's now referred to as William of Ockham on the supposition that he came from … Ockham. How could Ockeghem be an alternative?

[ahinton]

Hardly. The Domesday form of Ockham, Surrey, is Bochehā (Bocheham):



But he's now referred to as William of Ockham on the supposition that he came from … Ockham. How could Ockeghem be an alternative?

These things have a habit of metamorphosing with time, as has already been the case in the present instance although, as I'd assumed would have been reasonably obvious, my suggestion was knowingly frivolous...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Occam's razor says nobody knows enough Latin to care.

"Nobody" in the thirty-two years since the novel appeared, except on a Radio3 message forum thingy? Is that really the simplest and most likely interpretation?

Remember, the original isn't real Latin either. It just looks more like it than the bastard (sic) version in the book.

Yes - which is precisely why my Occam's Razor tells me, that Atwood's version isn't a "mistake"/"false memory" or whatever. Given the popularity of the book, the film, and now the television series, isn't it unlikely that one of Atwood's fellow school students have pointed out by now that that wasn't the version doing the rounds at the time?

[french frank]

as I'd assumed would have been reasonably obvious, my suggestion was knowingly frivolous...

It was. But this is Pedants' Paradise.

[ahinton]

It was. But this is Pedants' Paradise.

Indeed it is, but I would hope that pedantry and frivolity are not necessarily by definition incompatible in paradisum.

[french frank]

Yes - which is precisely why my Occam's Razor tells me, that Atwood's version isn't a "mistake"/"false memory" or whatever. Given the popularity of the book, the film, and now the television series, isn't it unlikely that one of Atwood's fellow school students have pointed out by now that that wasn't the version doing the rounds at the time?

But surely it's equally unlikely that none of them, no one, had come across the original 'cod-Latin' and therefore become aware of the mistake?

One reason for keeping stumm would be that it would be a bit unkind to jeer at someone who had it tattooed up her (or his) arm that it wasn't even correct cod-Latin. That it was illiterate cod-Latin. More likely is that, because it became famous in that form, that is now the accepted form. Like words that pass out of currency.

[french frank]

Indeed it is, but I would hope that pedantry and frivolity are not necessarily by definition incompatible in paradisum.

In paradiso.