Pedants' Paradise

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  • ahinton
    Full Member
    • Nov 2010
    • 16122

    Originally posted by Ferretfancy View Post
    I suspect this is of World War One vintage. John Betjeman always said an 'otel and enjoyed playing goff.
    At the risk of momentary digression, do you suppose that the absurdly affected "Rafe" as the forename of Vaughan Williams might have had similar origins?

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    • ferneyhoughgeliebte
      Gone fishin'
      • Sep 2011
      • 30163

      Originally posted by ahinton View Post
      Sounds like Hhhancock's hhhalf-hour...


      Originally posted by french frank View Post
      Yes, that WAS what I meant.
      Fort so.

      The first time I ever encountered the possibility of "an hotel" being "correct" English was when I was being prepared for the Eleven-plus, and we were set "put the correct 'a' of 'an' before these words"-type exercise. I was outraged to have my "a hotel" marked as "wrong" - as was everybody else in the class, except the one lad who'd got it "right". His parents owned a hotel.

      (I was similarly incredulous four years later when I was told that "bade" should be pronounced "bad" and not "baid".)

      "An hhotel" is just wrong - people who have heard that it should be "an" but who have also been taught that it is "common" to drop their haitches.
      [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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      • ferneyhoughgeliebte
        Gone fishin'
        • Sep 2011
        • 30163

        Originally posted by ahinton View Post
        At the risk of momentary digression, do you suppose that the absurdly affected "Rafe" as the forename of Vaughan Williams might have had similar origins?
        No - it must be earlier than that - WS Gilbert pronounced his HMS Pinafore character's name as "Rafe Rackstraw".
        [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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        • ahinton
          Full Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 16122

          Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
          No - it must be earlier than that - WS Gilbert pronounced his HMS Pinafore character's name as "Rafe Rackstraw".
          Yes, but I was referring specifically to the adoption of that pronunciation in place of "Ralph" in Dr Vaughan Williams' name!

          Comment

          • vinteuil
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 12765

            .

            ... innarestin' time chart for use of "a / an historic" in US and British English -

            Comment

            • ferneyhoughgeliebte
              Gone fishin'
              • Sep 2011
              • 30163

              Originally posted by ahinton View Post
              Yes, but I was referring specifically to the adoption of that pronunciation in place of "Ralph" in Dr Vaughan Williams' name!
              I thought that that was how he pronounced it himself? If not, why do you think that the change of pronunciation originated in the First World War? (He was around for another forty years to prevent it if there had been a change at that time.)
              [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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              • ahinton
                Full Member
                • Nov 2010
                • 16122

                Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
                I thought that that was how he pronounced it himself?
                I didn't know that! although, if so, I still have no idea why!

                Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
                If not, why do you think that the change of pronunciation originated in the First World War?
                I didn't and don't think it; I merely wondered about it.

                Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
                He was around for another forty years to prevent it if there had been a change at that time.
                Perhaps he just didn't care!



                but also the plot thickens at





                The issue now seems to be the English habit of spelling certain names one way and pronouncing them another, as in Cholmondeley and Featherstonehaugh, not to mention that non-English people who have not actually heard the name of another English composer pronounced might reasonably be excused for having no no idea how properly to say it given the number of possible alternatives!...
                Last edited by ahinton; 11-01-17, 14:36.

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                • Bryn
                  Banned
                  • Mar 2007
                  • 24688

                  This might help.

                  Comment

                  • Serial_Apologist
                    Full Member
                    • Dec 2010
                    • 37559

                    Originally posted by Bryn View Post
                    I guess Ralph Fiennes is just fine with that.

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                    • gurnemanz
                      Full Member
                      • Nov 2010
                      • 7380

                      Another member of the Fiennes tribe is of the course the strikingly named Ranulph Twisleton-Wykeham-Fiennes. Ranulph seems to have a different origin.

                      Random observations: My German father-in-law was Ralph, whereas the name is mostly spelt Ralf in German, eg Ralf Schuhmacher, younger brother of Michael. Their father is called Rolf.

                      Rolf and Ralf etc all seems to be variants of Rudolph. Also related to Raoul/Raul in the Romance languages where it has shortened itself by losing both the "d" and the "f".

                      Comment

                      • Lat-Literal
                        Guest
                        • Aug 2015
                        • 6983

                        Originally posted by ahinton View Post
                        I didn't know that! although, if so, I still have no idea why!


                        I didn't and don't think it; I merely wondered about it.


                        Perhaps he just didn't care!



                        but also the plot thickens at





                        The issue now seems to be the English habit of spelling certain names one way and pronouncing them another, as in Cholmondeley and Featherstonehaugh, not to mention that non-English people who have not actually heard the name of another English composer pronounced might reasonably be excused for having no no idea how properly to say it given the number of possible alternatives!...
                        I believe I have mentioned before that a senior school friend's late father was named Ralph (Richard) Ralph.

                        He pronounced his Christian name "Rafe".

                        Comment

                        • ahinton
                          Full Member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 16122

                          Originally posted by Bryn View Post
                          I'd just linked to it above in #3277!

                          Comment

                          • french frank
                            Administrator/Moderator
                            • Feb 2007
                            • 30205

                            Originally posted by ahinton View Post
                            I'd just linked to it above in #3277!
                            Pedant!
                            It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                            Comment

                            • Padraig
                              Full Member
                              • Feb 2013
                              • 4220

                              Originally posted by french frank View Post
                              Pedant!
                              Re 'an hotel' etc.

                              By coincidence I read just now:

                              'I was yesterday invited by a gentleman to dinner, who promised that our entertainment should consist of an haunch of venison, a turtle, and a great man.'

                              Oliver Goldsmith

                              Comment

                              • P. G. Tipps
                                Full Member
                                • Jun 2014
                                • 2978

                                I always say 'an hotel' ... it makes good, logical linguistic sense even if 'propah' English often doesn't?

                                It is certainly preferable to that wretched alternative, an horridly Americanised 'ay' ?.

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