Pedants' Paradise

[french frank]

.

... un demi is 25 cl, half of une pinte, 50 cl. At least, in France.

I did not know that. I probably asked at the time and no one knew.

[Alain Maréchal]

.

... un demi is 25 cl, half of une pinte, 50 cl. At least, in France. Doubtless they have different ideas in Swisserland. Or Belgium...

You may have discovered, M. V, that sometimes un demi can mean un demi-litre, in certain areas. Perhaps there is a divide along the oil/oc demarcation (which just happens to be around here - Le Bourbonnais is in the linguistic croissant.

In Belgium you get 50cl of beer unless you stop them. Why stop them?

afterthought: when I first moved here I wasn't sure about the quantities of beer being offered, because barmen (and they were always men) asked une painte?, apparently feminising it. I later realised that les Bourbonnais say aine when they intend an in termination. (Useless to know but interesting perhaps.)

[Zucchini]

... un demi is 25 cl, half of une pinte, 50 cl. At least, in France.

And a galopin (street urchin) is a demi of a demi.
If you have a rucksack & look imploringly like a knackered spaniel, fiddle & fart about looking for money, you should get it free ...

[jean]

I get the feeling that Jean's underlying unhappiness here is the (masculinist?) assumption that the default unit measure for a beer should be taken as "a pint".

Well sort of. But there's more to it than that.

If I go into a pub as a regular I might say to the landlord - "A bitter, please", and he will understand this as "A pint of bitter, please" and draw it accordingly.

I think the crucial word there is might. Because I'm fairly certain you don't.

It's true that people talk of going for a beer (though not, I think, of going for a bitter), but when they get to the bar, that's not what they ask for.

If you listen carefully (as in the interests of this research I am sure you will), you'll hear that the request is always for a pint (or a half) of Timothy Taylor's Landlord, or whatever.

.

[Alain Maréchal]

And a galopin (street urchin) is a demi of a demi.
.

That is un bock here. Sufficient to quench the thirst but not a serious drink.

[jean]

Caffè normale is unknown to me:

It isn't what you order in a bar, but when I've asked for un caffè after a meal, I've often been prompted with the question normale? possibly because as an English person I am thought quite likely to be about to commit the social gaffe of wanting a cappuccino.

un café means a usual (demitasse) express (which now seems to have gained an 'o' at the end - while keeping the 'x'?)

The Italians and the French aren't very good at each other's languages. In an Italian pizzeria, I've been offered a pizza topped with brié.

[kernelbogey]

...I'm going for a coffee.

I find interesting nuances in such phrases.

Shall we meet for coffee?
Would you like a coffee?
Would you like coffee?
Let's grab a coffee.

The first has a genteel ring to it, to me often implying meeting in one or another home of those in the conversation. (Biscuits are likely to be on offer.)

The second has always (when offered in someone's house) impled to me the offer of instant coffee (which I avoid at all costs unless to do so would give offence).

On the other hand, the third (uttered in someone's house) connotes the offer of 'real' coffee.

'Grabbing' a coffee suggests getting take-away coffee from one of the ubiquitous chains (who perhaps might print on the cup 'Warning: Grabbing a coffee may be dangerous').

(I know I should get out more, but I think I'll just go and make myself some coffee.)

[vinteuil]

.

... pondering further, I suspect that 'half a bitter' / 'half of bitter' is actually a stock phrase 'halfobitter'; I suspect jean is right in surmising that there is an 'of' lurking in there. It's like 'fiveoclock' - it can be analyzed into original constituent parts as "five of the clock", but it is in fact processed as a single item, an "oclock" of which we all know the meaning.

Jean is, however, not right in her surmise in #3214.

Landlord - "What are you having?"
vinteuil - "A bitter, please"
(Landlord pulls pint of vinteuil's (and the pub's) regular brew)

... this is what actually happens.

[french frank]

It isn't what you order in a bar, but when I've asked for un caffè after a meal, I've often been prompted with the question normale? possibly because as an English person I am thought quite likely to be about to commit the social gaffe of wanting a cappuccino.

I'm sure that's so. I am not familiar with Italian bars.

The Italians and the French aren't very good at each other's languages. In an Italian pizzeria, I've been offered a pizza topped with brié.

In our local (very traditional) family-run pizzeria they now quite happily (or sadly, but with a smile) offer brushetta. I'm also offered 'un caffè' ? after I've eaten, which is a double espresso, and no spoon.

Much like M. Vinteuil's regular brew, I see.

[Should have added that it doesn't sound as if they're very good with pizza either …]

[jean]

... pondering further, I suspect that 'half a bitter' / 'half of bitter' is actually a stock phrase 'halfobitter'; I suspect jean is right in surmising that there is an 'of' lurking in there. It's like 'fiveoclock' - it can be analyzed into original constituent parts as "five of the clock", but it is in fact processed as a single item, an "oclock" of which we all know the meaning.

Then let's hear no more gasps of horror when the reverse happens and an of replaces have.

(Actually I did that in my #3192 above, but nobody gasped at all.)

Jean is, however, not right in her surmise in #3214.

Landlord - "What are you having?"
vinteuil - "A bitter, please"
(Landlord pulls pint of vinteuil's (and the pub's) regular brew)

... this is what actually happens.

Short of sitting invisibly on your shoulder s you order, I can't disprove that. But doesn't the landlord have an array of guest beers you'd sometimes like to try instead?

[vinteuil]

Then let's hear no more gasps of horror when the reverse happens and an of replaces have.

(Actually I did that in my #3192 above, but nobody gasped at all.)

... that's coz we're an alert bunch, and we all got your joke.

I do occasionally worry - I (and mme v, and friends, and family) often deliberately (but skittishly) mangle our well-beloved English langwidge, and will consciously use 'of' for 'have', 'misCHEEVious' for 'MISchievous', 'conTROVersy' for 'CONtroversy', 'nucular' for 'nuclear', ect, ect, - the worry being that eventually we might begin to take these aberrancies for the Real Thing, and forget the correctitude into which we woz brung up...

[french frank]

I read on the BBC News website today:

"… former Green Party nominee Jill Stein's recount campaign in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania is unlikely to change the electoral math."

Not only would I not say 'math' for 'maths', I think I would probably have said 'arithmetic' (isn't the calculation mainly a question of adding up?).

[ahinton]

I read on the BBC News website today:

"… former Green Party nominee Jill Stein's recount campaign in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania is unlikely to change the electoral math."

Not only would I not say 'math' for 'maths', I think I would probably have said 'arithmetic' (isn't the calculation mainly a question of adding up?).

Indeed - although I'm unsure what happened to jean's subsequent post in which she observed that Stein was a candidate rather than a mere nominee, to which I was about to respond that I thought that she was Rick Stein's ex-wife, but never mind...

[ahinton]

... that's coz we're an alert bunch, and we all got your joke.

I do occasionally worry - I (and mme v, and friends, and family) often deliberately (but skittishly) mangle our well-beloved English langwidge, and will consciously use 'of' for 'have', 'misCHEEVious' for 'MISchievous', 'conTROVersy' for 'CONtroversy', 'nucular' for 'nuclear', ect, ect, - the worry being that eventually we might begin to take these aberrancies for the Real Thing, and forget the correctitude into which we woz brung up...

Not to mention "ect." for "etc." - and "into wot uswas woz brung up" is surely more correct, n'est-ce pas? - oh and, as I have noted previously, if you miss Chievious you can always get off at J12 and turn back to J13 on M4...

[french frank]

Indeed - although I'm unsure what happened to jean's subsequent post in which she observed that Stein was a candidate rather than a mere nominee, to which I was about to respond that I thought that she was Rick Stein's ex-wife, but never mind...

She deleted it, I believe.