Pedants' Paradise

[french frank]

I'm not sure what I can add.

Arsenal from Arabic dar-al-Sina'a ; house of art / industry
arsenic from Persian zarnikh ; gold/ yellow

And you are looking for a more-than-coincidental connection?

No, but there was just something in the Wikipedia explanation which seemed to muddy the waters, cloud the issue and otherwise confuse. I was just looking in the wrong place. I think I have located it but agree that the question of coincidence is out of the question.

[ahinton]

This has all become quite a pain in the Arse'n'alll...

[Lat-Literal]

Depends on whether or not you can remember what they are celebritous for. I happened by chance to pass the actor Nigel Havers in the street a few weeks ago. For the life of me, I could not just then recall either his name or what, apart from "Grumpy Old Men", I'd seen him in, or I might have managed to utter something embarrassing.

He is often on the new quiz programme "Debatable" along with people like Jennie Bond.

You could have said "Hello Nigel, one thing I have been meaning to ask you is how is Jennie?".

Also "why does she spell her name with an "ie" and not with an "i" or a "y""?

I assumed that at some point in its history the football ground was close to an original armaments factory/store, like the Bibliothèque de l'Arsenal in Paris.

I'm not quite sure of the connection between the name Arsenius/Arsenios and Greek ἀρσενικός - arsenic (the Gk for masculine, male is ἀρρενικός but ἀρσενικός is an alternative form). Unless arsenic was used to make explosives?

They were originally next to the Royal Woolwich Arsenal (south of the Thames).

That partially explains the rivalry with Tottenham as Spurs fans claim only their team "is" North London.

It is a significant point.

I don't think I could or would have supported Arsenal if it hadn't had a South London connection historically even though that was long before my time.

[Lat-Literal]

When and why did haversacks become rucksacks and why were they originally haversacks?

When and why did plimsolls become deck shoes and do both these terms have a direct connection with boats?

Why were plimsolls known as pumps in the north and who came up with the word trainers?

...well, her 'real' name is Judith, so why not?

She was born in the 1930s so I imagine "Judi" emanates from the 1940s or the 1950s. But it seems more recent as a trend - "Vicki" but never "Nicki", "Vickie" or "Nickie", "Vikki", yes and "Nikki" too, "Trudie" rather than "Trudy" - presumably originally Ermintrude - and "Debbi" as well as "Debbie". These do not appear to be English words to me but rather in the case of "i" leaning to Italian although not convincingly and in the case of "kk" linked to nothing at all. Is this just "artistic licence" that was popularized. I recall an Alison in the early 1980s starting to write her name "Alyson". I said "I didn't know you spelled it with a "y"". She didn't answer so I asked her which was the original spelling. And at that point she steadfastly refused to comment so I didn't pursue it again. Maybe it is a name thing. There is an acceptance in society that there is permission to mess about with names more.

[Richard Tarleton]

When and why did haversacks become rucksacks and why were they originally haversacks?

When and why did plimsolls become deck shoes and do both these terms have a direct connection with boats?

Why were plimsolls known as pumps in the north and who came up with the word trainers?

Lat, I think the short answer is that they all refer to different things. And all of them (both the terms and the items) have become much more specialised, evolving rapidly for a variety of specialised purposes.

Several definitions give haversack as a bag with one shoulder strap, with French and/or German etymology, and perhaps with more maritime associations. Rucksacks (backpacks in USA & Canada, 2 straps - or more, including chest and waist straps) more for walking and climbing. These have evolved dramatically since I bought my first metal-framed rucksack from Milletts in the late 60s. Again, German etymology.

Plimsolls appear to have originated as beachwear (various regional terms, I heard them referred to as gutties where I used to live). Pumps are flat-heeled dancing shoes. Multiple terms for trainers (sneakers, etc.), and, again, multiple functions - from athletic to street wear. The "athletic" ones have diversified into walking shoes, approach shoes, etc. - just go into your nearest Cotswold or similar and prepare to be baffled.
I don't think everything evolved from the plimsoll. Deck shoes, aka boat shoes, are made of leather with ridged rubber soles and moccasin stitching - again, not descended from plimsolls.

[vinteuil]

.

... growing up in Wiltshire in the 1950s we called plimsolls "daps". I think there are many regional words for these things.

[jean]

She was born in the 1930s so I imagine "Judi" emanates from the 1940s or the 1950s. But it seems more recent as a trend

Indeed - there were lots of 'Judys' in the 40s and 50s! And weren't there 'Trudys' too, back then? But never 'Debby' I think.

'Danii' is quite recent and defies pronunciation.

There is an acceptance in society that there is permission to mess about with names more.

And you are never allowed to say that any spelling of a name is wrong (not that I would ever want to, of course).

I have known Philippas and Phillipas, and I once taught a class that had in it a Melissa and a Mellisa.

[Lat-Literal]

Lat, I think the short answer is that they all refer to different things. And all of them (both the terms and the items) have become much more specialised, evolving rapidly for a variety of specialised purposes.

Several definitions give haversack as a bag with one shoulder strap, with French and/or German etymology, and perhaps with more maritime associations. Rucksacks (backpacks in USA & Canada, 2 straps - or more, including chest and waist straps) more for walking and climbing. These have evolved dramatically since I bought my first metal-framed rucksack from Milletts in the late 60s. Again, German etymology.

Plimsolls appear to have originated as beachwear (various regional terms, I heard them referred to as gutties where I used to live). Pumps are flat-heeled dancing shoes. Multiple terms for trainers (sneakers, etc.), and, again, multiple functions - from athletic to street wear. The "athletic" ones have diversified into walking shoes, approach shoes, etc. - just go into your nearest Cotswold or similar and prepare to be baffled.
I don't think everything evolved from the plimsoll. Deck shoes, aka boat shoes, are made of leather with ridged rubber soles and moccasin stitching - again, not descended from plimsolls.

Ah, now, that is interesting and what a great reply for which thanks.

I have always felt that "rucksack" was the word of my own generation whereas "haversack" was that of those who were older. As the word "rucksack" sounded German to me and "haversack" didn't, I assumed that it was subconsciously preferred by the war generations for being "more" English. I always noticed it as a sticking point unlike say the transition from "wireless" to "radio". But now you are saying it could have German etymology. I had forgotten "backpacks" which I associate more with younger - and older - people. We got as far as "going backpacking" but with rucksacks. And, yes, the ones in the 1980s were heavier than they are now and I have experienced earlier ones which were heavier still.

I didn't know the word "gutties" - or "daps" which is mentioned in one of your links with the "d" allegedly linked to Dunlop. What I do think is that "Dunlops" in full almost became a word for plimsolls just as "Hoover" became a word for a vacuum cleaner but it didn't last because that was the era when trainers took over. Now that you mention "pumps" were often about dance, that makes sense because I do know that association. However, in my mind, I had thought of "pumps" as possibly being something that is used where the heart pumps as in exercise just as "trainers" are used in "physical training". Maybe that rather strange sort of displacement - the exercise becomes the shoes - is American/commercial?

The link on plimsolls says: "This name derived, according to Nicholette Jones's book The Plimsoll Sensation, because the coloured horizontal band joining the upper to the sole resembled the Plimsoll line on a ship's hull, or because, just like the Plimsoll line on a ship, if water got above the line of the rubber sole, the wearer would get wet". And, yes, deck shoes plus boat shoes so much of it is in the naval area. I fully take the point about diversity - the more things there are or there appear to be, the more words there can be.

[jean]

I wonder where the Italian zaino comes from.

[vinteuil]

I wonder where the Italian zaino comes from.

.

http://www.etimo.it/?term=zaino&find=Cerca

[Lat-Literal]

Indeed - there were lots of 'Judys' in the 40s and 50s! And weren't there 'Trudys' too, back then? But never 'Debby' I think.

'Danii' is quite recent and defies pronunciation.

And you are never allowed to say that any spelling of a name is wrong (not that I would ever want to, of course).

I have known Philippas and Phillipas, and I once taught a class that had in it a Melissa and a Mellisa.

Oh yes - "Danii" or even "Dannii".

Re "Mellisa", at least it isn't "Melisma".

Do these points apply to men's names? It might be that the trend was established with men's names - "Bazza", "Gaz" etc - although not on the formal certificate.

What does happen there, though, is "Harry", "Ben", "Jack" - rather than the full names. Some now are near the top of the popularity charts. I'm not keen on it.

What next? Benjaminn, Jakk and Harreigh?

There is also what I would call the strange and alarming case of disappearing names. There was a time in the eighties when thousands of Kylies and especially Kayleighs were born in Britain (the first for obvious reasons and the second because of a song by rock band Marillion). They have all mysteriously disappeared. Every single one. And if anyone is inclined to mention a certain Channel 4 news reporter called Kylie, I will simply say that she is not of British origin. There are no 30-something British Kylies or Kayleighs now.

[vinteuil]

.
http://www.etimo.it/?term=zaino&find=Cerca

... and thus ultimately from Gothic - tainjo

from

*tainijo, wicker (basket)

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/tainij%C7%AD

... proto-Germanic *tainaz twig

pre-Germanic *doynos





.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Christopher/Kristofer
Karen/Caron/Caren/Karin
Jonathan/Jonathon/Johnathan/Johnathon
Rachel/Rachael

We've already had "Harry S Trueman" (the "S" being his compete middle name). I wonder who will be the first person to be given a lower case name.

[vinteuil]

I wonder who will be the first person to be given a lower case name.

edward estlin cummings [1894-1962].

Well of course he wozzent "given" that name. But it's what he wd've wanted...

[Lat-Literal]

edward estlin cummings [1894-1962].

Well of course he wozzent "given" that name. But it's what he wd've wanted...

.....and k.d. lang.