Pedants' Paradise

[jean]

Today I was following a guide book which directed me to look for 'a lone Scot's pine'.

I had no problems locating the pine, but I never saw any sign of the lone Scot.

[french frank]

Today I was following a guide book which directed me to look for 'a lone Scot's pine'.

I had no problems locating the pine, but I never saw any sign of the lone Scot.

He only comes out at night:

[jean]

.

[kernelbogey]

The confusion between 'I' and 'me' is now longstanding. I forget the name for this phenomenon, but it describes the consequence of the pedantic correction of (e.g.)'You and me need to agree...' to 'You and I need to agree'; so that it's now common usage to put 'I' in the object place, as in 'He gave that to you and I', presumably in the belief that 'I' is always 'more correct'.

I've started noticing that 'me' and 'us' are increasingly being used as the subject of the verb. This was drawn to my attention in Bill Bryson's latest book, The Road to Little Dribbling, where he castigates Hugh Dennis (a Cambridge English graduate, as he points out), in a tv programme on parenting, saying to his kids 'Mum and me think...'.

Here's an example from today's Guardian, albeit written by a therapist contirbutor, not a journalist:

Us adults with our job titles and qualifications might think we know best...

A part of me is irritated by the 'incorrectness' of this; another part recognises that language is continuously evolving, and there is no ambiguity here.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

A part of me is irritated by the 'incorrectness' of this; another part recognises that language is continuously evolving, and there is no ambiguity here.

Evolution of language is one thing. Allowing it to happen to by the laziness of those who can't be bothered to learn about grammar (including nominative and accusative cases) surely isn't the way it should happen.

[vinteuil]

Evolution of language is one thing. Allowing it to happen to by the laziness of those who can't be bothered to learn about grammar (including nominative and accusative cases) surely isn't the way it should happen.

... what do you understand by "learn about grammar"?

Native English speakers acquire their languages as children, and in so doing acquire the "grammar" - the rules underlying which bits go where. The various ideas which teachers subsequently impose upon them from a sense of "correctness" [dread word] - are those "grammar"?

And wherein lies any "laziness" in speaking the language as acquired??

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Ten years ago, my mother was in the dementia section of a very good care home. I visited her regularly, played the piano for her and showed he a book I had prepared with photographs of her life and family. On one page, there was a picture of her mother and father. Underneath the photograph I had written:
"These were my parents. My mother, Elizabeth Alpensinfonie, was six years older than my father, but she pretended to be four years younger than him."

One day, as I showed her the book, she looked at the page intently, reading it with a clear voice:

"These were my parents. My mother, Elizabeth Alpensinfonie, was six years older than my father, but she pretended to be four years younger than he."

I was gobsmacked.

[vinteuil]

.

... et alors? Which of these was 'correct'? If so, why, and according to whose 'rules'??


[I like the fact that the Alpensinfonie nomenclature is matrilineal... ]







.

[vinteuil]

I've started noticing that 'me' and 'us' are increasingly being used as the subject of the verb.
A part of me is irritated by the 'incorrectness' of this; another part recognises that language is continuously evolving, and there is no ambiguity here.

... I for one am quite happy with fellow-boarder Frances-IoM' s use of this form earlier today -

I suspect it is age related - us oldies are no longer required within the audience mix - I find the constant repetition of adverts (+ other obvious program placements) within programs to be a turn off....

(tho' I wd prob'ly still use the French programme rather than the American program ... )

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

.

... et alors? Which of these was 'correct'? If so, why, and according to whose 'rules'??

Only the rules of good manners, that enable people to speak the same language as one another, without the subtitles needed to comprehend Steph McGovern.

[I like the fact that the Alpensinfonie nomenclature is matrilineal... ]

Indeed. My father never visited the Alps.

[kernelbogey]

... those who can't be bothered to learn about grammar (including nominative and accusative cases)....

I wonder what proportion of, say, all A level candidates from British schools over the last five years would understand this part of your post, Alpie. I'd guess less than 25%. I think you and I are on the same side of the barricades here, but I have a small white flag at the ready. My point was partly to say that the 'rules' matter less where there is no ambiguity.

However, where the apostophe, for example, is ignored or despised, there is scope for ambiguity and lack of precision.

Your story about your mum is most touching, btw.

[vinteuil]

However, where the apostophe, for example, is ignored or despised, there is scope for ambiguity and lack of precision.
.

... and when you speak, how do you articulate the apostrophe?

[kernelbogey]

... I for one am quite happy with fellow-boarder Frances-IoM' s use of this form earlier today.... )

I noticed that, and - waving my white flag in the direction of the Isle of Man - think that it's a colloquialism that I can forgive (though I would have written 'we').

... and when you speak, how do you articulate the apostrophe?

A hit, a palpable hit! I suspect I rely on context, and/or dialogue .

[jean]

Evolution of language is one thing. Allowing it to happen to by the laziness of those who can't be bothered to learn about grammar (including nominative and accusative cases) surely isn't the way it should happen.

How else has it ever happened?

As to nominative and accusative cases, strictly speaking modern English doesn't have an accusative case. These days, we talk of an oblique case. Let Mr Wiki explain:

Modern English, which almost entirely lacks declension in its nouns, does not have an explicitly marked accusative case even in the pronouns. Such forms as whom, them, and her derive rather from the old Germanic dative forms, of which the -m and -r endings are characteristic. This conflation of the old accusative, dative, instrumental, and (after prepositions) genitive cases is the oblique case. Most modern English grammarians no longer use the Latin accusative/dative model, though they tend to use the terms objective for oblique, subjective for nominative, and possessive for genitive (see Declension in English).

[french frank]

'Language' is how it's used, not conformity with rules.

The rigid so-called 'rules' of language laid out how language usage had developed among the educated classes (especially those of the 19th c.). Language came first; the 'rules' came afterwards, fossilising usages that were no longer current and insisting that they must continue to be adhered to.