Pedants' Paradise

[ahinton]

Led by Wich Tyler.

W(h)at might Alan Bush have made of that?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

As this could be deemed correct with or without the apostrophe, might one assume that there were no grocer's' in those days?

I hope you're not getting into that attributive noun minefield. It normally only applies with singular nouns, though there are exceptions - a Beatles song, for example.

[jean]

A Beatles song isn't an exception to anything!

[french frank]

I hope you're not getting into that attributive noun minefield. It normally only applies with singular nouns, though there are exceptions - a Beatles song, for example.

I've had this 'dispute' with Mark over "listeners group". Absolutely no apostrophe because listeners describes the kind of group (consumers group, readers group, dog owners group) as 'a Beatles song' is normally an identifier, descriptor: there are lots of other sorts of group and song. I can think of contexts where, possibly, 'the Beatles' songs' might mean something - in disputes over copyright, for instance, but even that seems to be pushing it.

When I think about it, is 'the Beatles' plural? :-)

[jean]

I've had the argument, too - that's what I meant when I said a Beatles song isn't an exception to anything.

A Beatles' song would be analogous to a Beethoven's symphony, which nobody would dream of writing.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

When I think about it, is 'the Beatles' plural? :-)

Preumably: Paul McCartney is almost always referred to* as an "ex-Beatle".


(* - except by MrGG, of course. (Or even "of coarse".)

[kernelbogey]

When I think about it, is 'the Beatles' plural? :-)

The orchestra gets to its feet - or, The orchestra get to their feet...?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

As this could be deemed correct with or without the apostrophe, might one assume that there were no grocer's' in those days?

I hope you're not getting into that attributive noun minefield. It normally only applies with singular nouns, though there are exceptions - a Beatles song, for example.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I've had this 'dispute' with Mark over "listeners group". Absolutely no apostrophe because listeners describes the kind of group (consumers group, readers group, dog owners group) as 'a Beatles song' is normally an identifier, descriptor: there are lots of other sorts of group and song. I can think of contexts where, possibly, 'the Beatles' songs' might mean something - in disputes over copyright, for instance, but even that seems to be pushing it.

When I think about it, is 'the Beatles' plural? :-)

Ho, hum, Er ...

I think I might disagree in the case of a listeners' group, as it's a group of individual listeners' whereas The Beatles is the collective name of a group.

You might have a listener group though. Attributive nouns are nearly always singular.

I have a stolen Snowdon Mountain Railway summit terminus station cafe table placemat in my pocket.

[subcontrabass]

The orchestra gets to its feet - or, The orchestra get to their feet...?

Surely it is the members of the orchestra who get to their feet?

[jean]

I hope you're not getting into that attributive noun minefield. It normally only applies with singular nouns, though there are exceptions - a Beatles song, for example.

I see what you mean now - the 'exception' is just to the 'normal' course of things.

...a listeners' group, as it's a group of individual listeners'...

I'd say the listenere in the group could be regarded as either possessive or attributive - but a group of individual listeners' is belt and braces stuff, since the possessive function is performed by the of, so no apostrophe is either necessaray or desirable!

[ahinton]

I've had the argument, too - that's what I meant when I said a Beatles song isn't an exception to anything.

A Beatles' song would be analogous to a Beethoven's symphony, which nobody would dream of writing.

...unless perhaps there were several Beethovens writing symphonies, although not even then, I imagine...

[ahinton]

The orchestra gets to its feet - or, The orchestra get to their feet...?

That could be taken as almost like the old chestnut "which is correct? eight and eight are fifteen or eight and eight is fifteen?" (in which, of course, "and" should read "plus" in any case - indeed, in both cases).

Arguably best solved, methinks, by persuading the orchestra to remain seated...

[jean]

...unless perhaps there were several Beethovens writing symphonies, although not even then, I imagine...

Is there one Baal, or several?

[subcontrabass]

That could be taken as almost like the old chestnut "which is correct? eight and eight are fifteen or eight and eight is fifteen?" (in which, of course, "and" should read "plus" in any case - indeed, in both cases).

Arguably best solved, methinks, by persuading the orchestra to remain seated...

Particularly when playing the national antherm.