Pedants' Paradise

[ardcarp]

I wonder what percentage of the population would pronounce Ordnance Survey (as in maps) without an intrusive vowel between the d and the n ? It must be a natural sort of thing to do. Slightly off-topic, I recently went sailing with a crew that included a highly educated young black Caribbean woman. She said 'arks' instead of 'ask' and giggled as she did it. Discussing this tendency with her, she claimed a genetic propensity of Afro-Carribeans to find difficulty in '-sk'. I find it hard to believe; and even if true, such things would be hard for a white European to say with invoking all sorts of opprobrium.

[gurnemanz]

Some people (G Bush) like intrusive vowels, as in his famous "nucular". I assume "arks" is metathesis at work, as in three/third.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

she claimed a genetic propensity of Afro-Carribeans to find difficulty in '-sk'.

How does she cope with "Ska"?

[french frank]

She said 'arks' instead of 'ask' and giggled as she did it. Discussing this tendency with her, she claimed a genetic propensity of Afro-Carribeans to find difficulty in '-sk'. I find it hard to believe

But peoples in certain parts of Europe, at certain periods in history, found Latin consonantal groups hard to pronounce: so blanc(o) becomes branco in Portuguese, bianco in Italian (and similarly with cl, fl, pl &c). And Stephan(o) becomes Étienne in French, Esteban in Spanish. But French manages blanc and Italian manages Stefano…

[Serial_Apologist]

But peoples in certain parts of Europe, at certain periods in history, found Latin consonantal groups hard to pronounce: so blanc(o) becomes branco in Portuguese, bianco in Italian (and similarly with cl, fl, pl &c). And Stephan(o) becomes Étienne in French, Esteban in Spanish. But French manages blanc and Italian manages Stefano…

And SE Asians, their many different languages notwithstanding, really seem universally to find our "R" hard to pronounce: hence "flied lice". We tried that one out on one of Dad's helpers, originally from Thailand, who fortunately took our pointing out her error in good humour.

[jean]

And SE Asians, their many different languages notwithstanding, really seem universally to find our "R" hard to pronounce...

I have been told that it's not so much the inability to pronounce any letter so much as not hearing the difference between 'l' and 'r'.

The Japanese language has no English-type /l/ or /r/, but rather a single consonant that lies in between the two. It is post-alveolar like an English /r/, but a lateral consonant like /l/.

.

[jean]

But peoples in certain parts of Europe, at certain periods in history, found Latin consonantal groups hard to pronounce: so blanc(o) becomes branco in Portuguese, bianco in Italian (and similarly with cl, fl, pl &c). And Stephan(o) becomes Étienne in French, Esteban in Spanish. But French manages blanc and Italian manages Stefano…

Do you think the pedants of the time got upset about it?

[french frank]

Do you think the pedants of the time got upset about it?

If they spoke Latin, perhaps.

[vinteuil]

If they spoke Latin, perhaps.

... bet that Quintilian got into a right estrop...

[french frank]

... bet that Quintilian got into a right estrop...

Come to think of it, when did Hispania become (Hi)Spain? I suppose when someone took it as two words (Hi, Spain. Hi, France) .

[Serial_Apologist]

I have been told that it's not so much the inability to pronounce any letter so much as not hearing the difference between 'l' and 'r'.

The Japanese language has no English-type /l/ or /r/, but rather a single consonant that lies in between the two. It is post-alveolar like an English /r/, but a lateral consonant like /l/.

.

Thanks for this explanation, jean. Interesting.

[Serial_Apologist]

Come to think of it, when did Hispania become (Hi)Spain? I suppose when someone took it as two words (Hi, Spain. Hi, France) .

There was a Mediaeval dance called La Spagna, if that is any connection?

[french frank]

There was a Mediaeval dance called La Spagna, if that is any connection?

Isn't Spagna the Italian name, come to think of it?

[Serial_Apologist]

Isn't Spagna the Italian name, come to think of it?

That's right. Maybe that is where the split took place.

[Don Petter]

Strange headline on the front page of The Times today: 'Cameron's shot across the bows to the BBC'

Surely this is unidiomatic and illogical. One would expect 'of the BBC'. Whose bows did the shot cross before arriving at the BBC?