Pedants' Paradise

[mercia]

does this explain "an hotel" ? I'd always assumed that was just because the h was dropped. crossposted.

[french frank]

... because "historic", "historical" are stressed on the second syllable, whereas "history" is stressed on the first.

Yes, stress is clearly a factor.
Then we have 'a nadder', 'a norange' ...

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Both interesting comments, vinteui and ff.
The French are not always consistent either: l'hotel; le hibou

[vinteuil]

does this explain "an hotel" ? I'd always assumed that was just because the h was dropped. crossposted.

... I always say "an 'otel", I think because I still regard it as "an hôtel"

[jean]

But the Greek ἱστορία and post classical Latin istoria would both suggest a common form without an 'h' at the beginning...

But isn't that a rough breathing lurking on the initial letter of ἱστορία?

[vinteuil]

Yes, stress is clearly a factor. But why not an horrible <horribil(e)?
...

... ' cos horrible has an initial stress.

[vinteuil]

Then we have 'a nadder', 'a norange' ...

from naranja... And don't forget "an eft" / "a newt"...

[french frank]

... ' cos horrible has an initial stress.

Demn you, sir! You got there before I deleted that bit - which I thought was almost instantaneous ...

[french frank]

But isn't that a rough breathing lurking on the initial letter of ἱστορία?

You're right - I need new glasses and I'd forgotten about that. Was rough breathing a full 'h' sound, or like the hard 'h' in French (le héros, le hibou &c).

[vinteuil]

... but wd we say "an horrendous episode"? Not sure...


EDIT - on reflection, I think I probably would



.

[Padraig]

Is there any connection with the pronunciations 'aitch' and 'haitch' of h?

[vinteuil]

Is there any connection with the pronunciations 'aitch' and 'haitch' of h?

... I seem to recall hearing that in Catholic schools in Ireland pupils were taught to say 'haitch', and that in Protestant schools they were taught to say 'aitch' - is there any truth in this? Does this divergence exist elsewhere in the British Isles?

Certainly in southern England / RP, the aitch / haitch distinction is very much a class marker, the "haitch" causing horripilation among the more sensitive....

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

... I seem to recall hearing that in Catholic schools in Ireland pupils were taught to say 'haitch', and that in Protestant schools they were taught to say 'aitch' - is there any truth in this? Does this divergence exist elsewhere in the British Isles?

Certainly in southern England / RP, the aitch / haitch distinction is very much a class marker, the "haitch" causing horripilation among the more sensitive....

There was certainly talk of this during the Northern Ireland troubles.

When I lived in Derbyshire, "haitch" was seen as a hypercorrection by people trying to sound posh.

[Old Grumpy]

[QUOTE=vinteuil;451425]... I seem to recall hearing that in Catholic schools in Ireland pupils were taught to say 'haitch', and that in Protestant schools they were taught to say 'aitch' - is there any truth in this? Does this divergence exist elsewhere in the British Isles?

Certainly in southern England / RP, the aitch / haitch distinction is very much a class marker, the "haitch" causing horripilation among the more sensitive....[/QUOTE

Definitely aithch, not haitch. The Irish question is interesting - perhaps Padgraig could elucidate.

OG

[jean]

...Was rough breathing a full 'h' sound, or like the hard 'h' in French (le héros, le hibou &c).

I'm not sure how much we know. Whatever it was, The Romans don't seem to have been very interested.

I have heard Ancient Greek φ, which we transliterate as ph or f, pronounced like a p with a little explosion after it, and something similar done with χ.

Where did the French h come from?