Pedants' Paradise

[gurnemanz]

In French "vice" is masculine and "vertu" is feminine. Easy to remember!

[jean]

But though the abstract noun virtus may be feminine, it comes from vir, a man - it is the very quality that makes him a man, and is therefore not appropriate to females at all.

.

[jean]

...The word is masculine gender in that it is treated grammatically as such. For example, feminine nouns are lenited by the (definite) article 'an' - there is no indefinite article in Irish. A hen is 'cearc'; the hen is 'an chearc'; but the girl is 'an cailín'. Of course, once identified the girl reassumes her rights.

There's a word I didn't know the meaning of until I looked it up just now!

I knew about front mutation in Welsh (of course.)

[amateur51]

There's a word I didn't know the meaning of until I looked it up just now!

I knew about front mutation in Welsh (of course.)

Padraig's example of an chearc looks very like something from Welsh. I was taught that many of these mutations were in fact a codification of a natural speaking usage in which the change makes the word arrangement easier to say.

For example, the Welsh word for Cardiff is Caerdydd. 'In Cardiff' would be 'yn Caerdydd' but the mutation makes it 'yngh Ghaerdydd' ( I think!)

[Pabmusic]

Padraig's example of an chearc looks very like something from Welsh. I was taught that many of these mutations were in fact a codification of a natural speaking usage in which the change makes the word arrangement easier to say.

For example, the Welsh word for Cardiff is Caerdydd. 'In Cardiff' would be 'yn Caerdydd' but the mutation makes it 'yngh Ghaerdydd' ( I think!)

You have it, Ams. Languages were spoken before they were written (well, I suppose Esperanto and a few others weren't) and we try to rationalise the outcomes.

[Roehre]

Padraig's example of an chearc looks very like something from Welsh. I was taught that many of these mutations were in fact a codification of a natural speaking usage in which the change makes the word arrangement easier to say.

For example, the Welsh word for Cardiff is Caerdydd. 'In Cardiff' would be 'yn Caerdydd' but the mutation makes it 'yngh Ghaerdydd' ( I think!)

In Cardiff = Yng Nghaerdydd; to Cardiff = i Gaerdydd; from Cardiff = O Gaerdydd
Or: Betws; ym Metws, i Fetws, o Fetws
Welsh mutations are best understood by speaking them: in that espect it's a "lazy" language as most mutations soften the sharp edges in pronunciation. There aren't that many which are primarily dictated by grammar.

[french frank]

There's a word I didn't know the meaning of until I looked it up just now!

I knew about front mutation in Welsh (of course.)

And, possibly because I was taught Welsh by a Scotsman (from Islay), I always used the form 'lenated'

1909 J. Strachan Introd. Early Welsh 12 When an adjective in the positive degree precedes, the noun is lenated.

Strachan was indeed the modern textbook we used. Of the three 'lenate' form examples, two are from Strachan.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Most Welsh courses are based on the S. Wales dialect, but the language is, I believe, spoken more widely in the north. A paradox.

[JFLL]

And, possibly because I was taught Welsh by a Scotsman (from Islay), I always used the form 'lenated'

1909 J. Strachan Introd. Early Welsh 12 When an adjective in the positive degree precedes, the noun is lenated.

Strachan was indeed the modern textbook we used. Of the three 'lenate' form examples, two are from Strachan.

I'll probably be carried off to the Pedants' Dungeon for saying this, but I think the current term is lenited. Interesting change of usage – presumably some other pedant pointed out that the Latin verb was lenire not lenare . Lenition historically affected consonants between vowels in late British/early Welsh (in a 'softening' environment), not just at the beginning of words, so it had widespread effects throughout the language.

[jean]

...presumably some other pedant pointed out that the Latin verb was lenire not lenare ...

I didn't know edither spelling, but I'm guessing the original pedant thought -ate had become a naturalised suffix in English, which could be applied to any word whatever its origin - in this case the Latin adjective lenis.

[Roehre]

Most Welsh courses are based on the S. Wales dialect, but the language is, I believe, spoken more widely in the north. A paradox.

Welsh courses outside Wales tend to be southern Welsh. Courses in Wales -especially those either by the University of Wales or Menter Iaith - tend to be the Welsh dialect of the area in which they are given.
Northern Welsh (by the Goggies) is heard in the Welsh heartlands, i.e. Anglesey, Gwynedd, Conwy (with exception of the Llandudno-Rhyl coastal area), Denbighshire, Wrexham, Dyfed, Ceredigion. Southern orientated Welsh ( spoken by the Hwntws) is mostly heard roughly south of the A40, including Carmarthenshire, Breckonshire, to the borders.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Welsh courses outside Wales tend to be southern Welsh. Courses in Wales -especially those either by the University of Wales or Menter Iaith - tend to be the Welsh dialect of the area in which they are given.
Northern Welsh (by the Goggies) is heard in the Welsh heartlands, i.e. Anglesey, Gwynedd, Conwy (with exception of the Llandudno-Rhyl coastal area), Denbighshire, Wrexham, Dyfed, Ceredigion. Southern orientated Welsh ( spoken by the Hwntws) is most heard roughly south of the A40, including Carmarthenshire, Breckonshire, to the borders.

Thank you, Roehre. That was very much my understanding. At Bangor University, I lived in Bethesda for a while. I was saying in B & B in Carneddi, and had to learn some Welsh as it was the only way to communicate with the dog, who had been trained in Welsh. Later, when I was considering applying for teaching jobs in mid-Wales, I studied the Linguaphone Welsh course (nla) which was basically the southern version. (Much was made of the Argentine Welsh connection.)

[jean]

The Welsh taught in the parts of North Wales I know about is what the Welsh there actually speak.

My niece and nephews went to Welsh-medium school in Llanrug (Gwynedd) and sat GCSEs in Welsh there, and though they were scathing about South Walian Welsh whenever they came across it (such as when I quoted someting I'd heard somewhere), they had no problems aligning what they'd been taught with what they were speaking and hearing all round them.

I do remember though that adults who'd attended Welsh classes would try to to use in conversation words they'd learned, only to be told by the uncomprehending locals that the word they used was just an English one with -io on the end.

[Richard Tarleton]

Most Welsh courses are based on the S. Wales dialect, but the language is, I believe, spoken more widely in the north. A paradox.

When, a few years ago, the Eisteddford was held in St Davids, a North Walian pedant went round the various information outlets in the village, sorry city, and gathered up a number of bilingual leaflets including some for which I had been responsible and "marked" them. He then sent them back, covered in red ink, drawing attention to the numerous deviations from North Wales Welsh. He also offered his services as a translator in future. In fact they had been translated by a perfectly reputable form of translators based in S Wales. But it appeared, from internal communication, that South Wales Welsh did not cut it, and we were required (head office being in N Wales) to get all translation done by a North Wales firm in future.

[Richard Tarleton]

an English one with -io on the end.

...the commonest forms of which are Dim parkio and Dim smokio