Pedants' Paradise

[jean]

Polish pronunciation can be a minefield at first...

It shouldn't be, it's absolutely consistent - all you have to do is learn the rules.

[french frank]

It shouldn't be, it's absolutely consistent - all you have to do is learn the rules.

In most languages, bar English, pronunciation is probably pretty consistent. Doesn't always make them easy to pronounce! Written Polish is probably more offputting than spoken: it looks difficult. In Michał, the 'a' is presumably better preserved, as a short 'a', making a rather different diphthong from the 'aw' sound of Bristolese?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I agree with both Jean and ff. (They are the language gurus.) Even in the more challenging European languages, such as Welsh, pronunciation is remarkably consistent.

But with the tonal languages of the far east.

[ardcarp]

Change of topic...sorry.....and without looking back over 180+ posts, I don't know if it has been covered before. My current grouse is the penchant of R3 presenters to say, "Now Jo Bloggs is going to play Beethoven". What? The complete oeuvre?? Not even a 'some' to narrow things down a bit. And afterwards, "Jo Bloggs THERE playing, etc, etc". Where? Behind you??

[Don Petter]

Change of topic...sorry.....and without looking back over 180+ posts, I don't know if it has been covered before. My current grouse is the penchant of R3 presenters to say, "Now Jo Bloggs is going to play Beethoven". What? The complete oeuvre?? Not even a 'some' to narrow things down a bit. And afterwards, "Jo Bloggs THERE playing, etc, etc". Where? Behind you??

Reminds me of 'Peter Sellers sings Gershwin', which he did, literally.

[french frank]

And afterwards, "Jo Bloggs THERE playing, etc, etc". Where? Behind you??

I remember Humphrey Carpenter picking up on an announcer who said: "And the time, here on Radio 3, is ..."

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

My point was that if the grammarians had been thinking of Greek rather than Latin as a model for the categories they wanted to establish for English, they might have recognised it.

All your talk of Classical languages, Jean, has prompted me to try to relearn some Latin. I haven't really given it much thought since leaving school, other than when singing church music.

[ardcarp]

Ah those Friday afternoon Latin tests: Clad in the general's tent under the shadow of the knees.

[ardcarp]

Pedants' Paradise

Having tried and failed to read this in the past (though have used 'Kafka-esque' quite promiscuously) I found yesterday's In Our Time persuaded me to reach it down from the shelf. I might even open it. New Year's Resolution, maybe?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04pv8j1

If nothing else, it was a great resume of Kafka's background, life, limited writing career, and above all of his weird (unique?) subject matter.

Apropos of nothing, one of the programme's guests was announced as Professor Emerita of (something or other). I'm sure it's very PC, but in English no common nouns (viz 'professor') have a grammatical gender, so why should 'emeritus' be made to agree in a dog-Latin sort of way?

[jean]

...one of the programme's guests was announced as Professor Emerita of (something or other). I'm sure it's very PC, but in English no common nouns (viz 'professor') have a grammatical gender, so why should 'emeritus' be made to agree in a dog-Latin sort of way?

Emeritus has a gender, though. Why is it 'dog Latin' to change it as appropriate?

Professor wouldn't change anyway, being of the third declension.

(Here's someone who agrees with you - and someone who doesn't.)

[ardcarp]

Jean, thanks for your link. I'm glad others have thought about it. Maybe 'dog Latin' was a lazy use on my part. I really meant that some people with a weak grasp of Latin (amongst which I include myself) mess about with gender and number in a cavalier way, e.g. referenda, memoranda. I think what I'm trying to say is, that once a Latin word has become so regularly used as to become part of the English language, we shouldn't fiddle around to make it behave in a Latin way again.

On a probably irrelevant note, my mother (of fond memory) became the first female mayor of her town, gold chain, Rolls Royce and all. She was something of a feminist but never sought to question her being addressed as 'Mister Mayor' by all and sundry! Hard to imagine nowadays. My father always joked about being 'The Mayoress'.

[jean]

Jean, thanks for your link. I'm glad others have thought about it. Maybe 'dog Latin' was a lazy use on my part. I really meant that some people with a weak grasp of Latin (amongst which I include myself) mess about with gender and number in a cavalier way, e.g. referenda, memoranda. I think what I'm trying to say is, that once a Latin word has become so regularly used as to become part of the English language, we shouldn't fiddle around to make it behave in a Latin way again.

But emeritus isn't such a word, is it? It's gendered, whether you like it or not.

As far as your other two examples are concerned, referenda and memoranda are good Latin plurals; referendums and memorandums are good English ones. But they don't apply to people, and they're neuter anyway, so inflecting for gender isn't going to be an issue.

I don't like alumnus and alumni used for all-women institutions, either.

(Sorry, this really should be on the Pedants thread!)

[ardcarp]

This may or (probably) may not be of interest:

http://www.dailyedge.ie/lets-figure-this-out-whats-the-real-plural-of-referendum-261522-Oct2013/

Is this, "Because there isn’t a plural gerund in Latin", plain wrong?

[jean]

Very interesting article!

No, it is not wrong to say that gerunds don't have plurals - but gerundives (that's the adjectival form) do!

Thus the made-up word (I hadn't realised it was made up) referendum can be taken to mean (a thing) that is to be referred, just as agendum is (a thing) that is to be done, and as the meeting usually considers several of these, we need the plural agenda (things that are to be done).

[jean]

And here among the replies is exactly what I've just said!


Gavan, you’ve mixed up gerunds and gerundives.

Gerunds are verbal nouns as you say, eg walking. But gerundives contain the idea of “something needing to be done”. ie, an agenda is a list of things that need to be done (from Latin verb “agere”, to do) or the name Amanda that means needing to be loved. So a referendum translates directly as “something that needs to be referred” – in this case, to the people.

Latin gerundives do have plurals (eg agenda is the plural of agendum, which would be one item that needs to be done) and because we already use plurals of Latin gerundives in English, I’d argue we should also use the plural of referendum, ie referenda. Phew!