Pedants' Paradise

[french frank]

... but note further : is it Cunningham or Caldwell?

Caldwell comes closest, I THINK, to a root meaning: not giving any thought to the consequences of an action, but I would not think that that could serve as a legal definition.

I will hive this off to the paradise of pedants.

[mercia]

so when Petroc asks what work a listener reckons to be worthy of the title great he is asking what work in the listener's opinion is worthy of the title great. Breakfast presenters have been asking for listeners opinions on a variety of subjects for several years now - I don't quite see what difference the word reckon makes.

[french frank]

I don't quite see what difference the word reckon makes.

It was a reference (made elsewhere recently) to the Mitchell & Webb sketch 'Send us Your Reckons' (making fun of the BBC mania for asking people to 'email us' in reply to some question): "It is, for some reason, apparently vital that you do."

["You may not know anything about the issue but I bet you reckon something."

[LeMartinPecheur]

Colloquial meaning would be: I reckon = It is my opinion that/I estimate that/I judge that/ I 'calculate' that?

Note also 'reckless' - not calculating, judging, estimating, weighing up (before acting).

ff: I think you've got some work to do to link reckon and reckless. Both apparently come from German, but two different words, rechnen (vb), originally 'to explain', and ruoh/ ruch, 'care, regard'. As far as I can see, Onions' Oxford Etymological Dictionary gives no suggestion of a direct link.

[gurnemanz]

ff: I think you've got some work to do to link reckon and reckless. Both apparently come from German, but two different words, rechnen (vb), originally 'to explain', and ruoh/ ruch, 'care, regard'. As far as I can see, Onions' Oxford Etymological Dictionary gives no suggestion of a direct link.

There is an exact German cognate to reckless: "ruchlos" - the type of semi-obsolete, deliberately archaic word which Wagner loves (something like English "dastardly"). Elsa calls Ortrud "Ruchlose Frau!".

[french frank]

ff: I think you've got some work to do to link reckon and reckless. Both apparently come from German, but two different words, rechnen (vb), originally 'to explain', and ruoh/ ruch, 'care, regard'. As far as I can see, Onions' Oxford Etymological Dictionary gives no suggestion of a direct link.

I'm sure you're right that the etymology is different. There's a similarity of meaning with the colloquial use of reckon which has also no connection with 'to explain': in fact the exact opposite - you aren't expected to explain what you reckon. So both reck and reckon have an overlap of meaning.

One etymon relates to 'care, heed', the other to 'calculation, assessment': they meet in the meaning of 'think, judge, opinion'. But that is apparently coincidence rather than, as I assumed, etymological connection.

[kernelbogey]

[...]One etymon relates to 'care, heed', the other to 'calculation, assessment': they meet in the meaning of 'think, judge, opinion'. But that is apparently coincidence rather than, as I assumed, etymological connection.

I just love the smell of etymology in the morning.

[Pabmusic]

On a very general note, here's a history of English in 10 minutes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3r9bOkYW9s&w=600&h=338

And this chart is quite good:

[ardcarp]

Thanks for the Youtube clip, Pabs. Cheered up a grey start to Saturday!

[french frank]

Thanks, Pabs, nice chart.

I could look this up, but hey! (as they say, ooh, that does grate ...).

Speaking authoritatively, as a linguist, I've never quite got to the bottom [IOW haven't a clue) of where Greek fits in, and more interestingly, WHY? Not Romance, Germanic, Slavic, Finno-Ugric. Nor along with Basque. Etruscan (?). Have I missed out something obvious? Something shadowy about Illyrians somewhere, do I remember?

[ardcarp]

Speaking totally un-authoritatively, ff, didn't Greek sneak in because of scholarship? Classics (i.e. Greek and Latin) were so widely studied in schools and universities that when new words needed to be coined in the Enlightenment and probably before, Greek (especially prefixes) and Latin filled the gaps. For a start, Science (or should I say Natural Philosophy?) needed a lot of new vocab...and I dare say this applied to other academic disciplines wot I wot not of.

[vinteuil]

... I like the Celtic Reminants in Pabs's chart








.

[vinteuil]

... I've never quite got to the bottom ... of where Greek fits in, and more interestingly, WHY? Not Romance, Germanic, Slavic, Finno-Ugric. Nor along with Basque. Etruscan (?). Have I missed out something obvious? Something shadowy about Illyrians somewhere, do I remember?

... and don't forget Albanian (he says, helpfully... )

[Frances_iom]

could Greek have reentered via medicine, maths etc back translated from Arabic as the 8th/9th Century Moslem world discovered and built on Greek philosophy etc - the Greek derived prefixes eg Kilo came from the French revolution introducing the rational metric system (soon to be abolished in England as Camerloon wants to get back to Imperial measurements)

[french frank]

Oops, I realise I was commenting previously in a sloppy, general linguistic way, as regards the origins of Greek itself, rather than how it influenced English. Yes, the Renaissance which saw the scholarly revival of classical Greek (following the Fall of Constantinople) brought vocabulary into English/W. Europe via the new study of medical writings (e.g. associated with Hippocrates), philosophy and literature.

Off-the-cuff comment as I have been busy looking up other things - don't the Albanians claim to be descendants of the pre-Slavic Illyrians? A source of, erm, 'heated' debate among the Balkan nations.