Pedants' Paradise

[vinteuil]

Growing up in Wiltshire in the 1950s the 'be' forms of the verb 'to be' were still much in use among the village kids.
I bain't sure that do be true now tho' - must check with my brother - he be a teacher in Chippenham....

[Pabmusic]

...I still maintain that, One would not say 'are I not?', now, would one? ..

Of course one wouldn't, but as the link I posted in 373 says, aren't I does not actually come from are not I, anyway. The original (about 1600, when the habit of using contractions began) was amn't I (still in use in Scotland and Ireland, as you say). That became an't I, for ease of pronunciation in many accents. Ain't I was probably just a variant pronunciation of an't I. In turn, ain't I became a vulgar usage, especially when used with other pronouns - ain't he and he ain't - and an't I fell prey to RP (or southern) pronunciation as ahn't I (but spelt aren't I - no doubt because people were familiar with are as part of the verb to be.

The thing I find most interesting, though, is that Fowler in 1926 was clearly not familiar with aren't I - supporting the contention that it's a relatively recent development. Innit is part of the same story, more's the pity.

[scottycelt]

Of course one wouldn't, but as the link I posted in 373 says, aren't I does not actually come from are not I, anyway. The original (about 1600, when the habit of using contractions began) was amn't I (still in use in Scotland and Ireland, as you say). That became an't I, for ease of pronunciation in many accents. Ain't I was probably just a variant pronunciation of an't I. In turn, ain't I became a vulgar usage, especially when used with other pronouns - ain't he and he ain't - and an't I fell prey to RP (or southern) pronunciation as ahn't I (but spelt aren't I - no doubt because people were familiar with are as part of the verb to be.

The thing I find most interesting, though, is that Fowler in 1926 was clearly not familiar with aren't I - supporting the contention that it's a relatively recent development. Innit is part of the same story, more's the pity.

Ahhh ... all very plausible ... but however it were arrived at it still ain't right, i'ntit ... ? ...

[amateur51]

As I typed my previous post, this sonnet of Thomas Hardy came to mind:

The Pity Of It

I walked in loamy Wessex lanes, afar

From rail-track and from highway, and I heard

In field and farmstead many an ancient word

Of local lineage like 'Thu bist,' 'Er war,'

'Ich woll,' 'Er sholl,' and by-talk similar,

Nigh as they speak who in this month's moon gird

At England's very loins, thereunto spurred

By gangs whose glory threats and slaughters are. 



Then seemed a Heart crying: 'Whosoever they be

At root and bottom of this, who flung this flame

Between kin folk kin tongued even as are we,

Sinister, ugly, lurid, be their fame;

May their familiars grow to shun their name,

And their brood perish everlastingly.

August 1914

I doubt you'll hear 'thu bist' or 'ich woll' now, but it's interesting that you could do so a century ago.

Lovely post, Pabs - many thanks

[french frank]

I doubt you'll hear 'thu bist' or 'ich woll' now, but it's interesting that you could do so a century ago.

Thou bist, thee bist were certainly current in our Somerset village in my young days. And if you judge by the Wurzels 'bist' and 'bissn't' still are.

[Pabmusic]

Lovely post, Pabs - many thanks

Nice to hear from you, Ams. I love Hardy's poetry. Here's one that has some relevance to this thread (ie: things change, but we don't always appreciate that, since our understanding of time is conditioned by our human lives, and not by, for instance, geological time, evolutionary time or universal time):

At Day-Close In November

The ten hours' light is abating,

And a late bird flies across,

Where the pines, like waltzers waiting,

Give their black heads a toss.



Beech leaves, that yellow the noon-time,

Float past like specks in the eye;

I set every tree in my June time,

And now they obscure the sky.



And the children who ramble through here

Conceive that there never has been

A time when no tall trees grew here,

A time when none will be seen.

[Pabmusic]

Thou bist, thee bist were certainly current in our Somerset village in my young days. And if you judge by the Wurzels 'bist' and 'bissn't' still are.

I think it creeps into Bristle, don'it?

[amateur51]

Nice to hear from you, Ams. I love Hardy's poetry. Here's one that has some relevance to this thread (ie: things change, but we don't always appreciate that, since our understanding of time is conditioned by our human lives, and not by, for instance, geological time, evolutionary time or universal time):

At Day-Close In November

The ten hours' light is abating,

And a late bird flies across,

Where the pines, like waltzers waiting,

Give their black heads a toss.



Beech leaves, that yellow the noon-time,

Float past like specks in the eye;

I set every tree in my June time,

And now they obscure the sky.



And the children who ramble through here

Conceive that there never has been

A time when no tall trees grew here,

A time when none will be seen.

Many thanks again, Pabs

This immediately brought to mind the massive recent exhibition at The Royal Academy of Arts, London of David Hockney's work in Yorkshire in which he paints several carefully chosen locations throughout the seasons. It seems to have had a significant pleasurable impact on many 'ordinary' people (myself definitely included ) to judge by the enthusiastic conversations I overhead on my two visits.

[french frank]

I think it creeps into Bristle, don'it?

I do not know. I live north of the river . Actually, the real answer is, I don't think it's part of Krek Waiters Peak Bristle. There is the local dialect of 'Bemmy' - the patois of Bedminster which, being south of the river, was once part of Somerset, but I'm not familiar with it. There's more Polish/Turkish/Farsi/French/Spanish &c where I live.

[aeolium]

Some lovely Hardy, there, Pabmusic - and (appropriately for the thread) a nicely disconcerting conjunction of past and future in that last stanza: "Conceive that there never has been/...A time when none will be seen."

[amateur51]

I do not know. I live north of the river . Actually, the real answer is, I don't think it's part of Krek Waiters Peak Bristle. There is the local dialect of 'Bemmy' - the patois of Bedminster which, being south of the river, was once part of Somerset, but I'm not familiar with it. There's more Polish/Turkish/Farsi/French/Spanish &c where I live.

Innit

[Extended Play]

This could go on the Jubilee thread, but it would be a shame to interrupt the scrap going on there at the moment, so I'll stick to the comfort zone here.

The programme for our local street party has just come through the letterbox, and among the highlights is:

Adult's "Tug of War" -- at participant's own risk

Could be a one-sided contest. But no doubt a good time will be had by all!

[french frank]

Adult's "Tug of War" -- at participant's own risk

Yes, the idea of one person participating in a tug of war is a bit like one hand clapping

[Flay]

... one hand clapping

That sounds like a John Cage piece!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

That sounds like a John Cage piece!

More Reich-ish (?Reichesque? Reichian?) in this performance*, Flay:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooj1noUU2NM

(* = if it's genuine and not a "dub": the picture and soundtrack aren't exactly synchronized!)