Pedants' Paradise

[vinteuil]

so lets all give up ...

Er, no...

ahem...

[mangerton]

ahem...

Let's let that pass as a typo, vinteuil. There's nothing worse than typing in a thread like this; Sod's (or Murphy's) Law rules even more than usual. We've all been quite lucky so far!

[Extended Play]

There's nothing worse than this kind of apathy. So presumably the future of the English language is to be determined by the ones who do not bother to listen in their English lessons at school, and by those who are too lazy to write in sentences, use punctuation and capital letters appropriately? Well Radio 3 dumbs down, so lets all give up and say there's nothing we can do about shoddy English.

Er, no...

Eine Alpensonfonie: First, as a relative newcomer to these boards, but as a regular visitor before joining, may I please express my appreciation -- as so many other members have done -- for your work, week by week, in setting out the BaL options.

To return to the thread: it's my fault for not expressing myself clearly enough.....but "apathy" about the English language and the way it is used: no, nothing could be further from the truth, as my former colleagues in my career in journalism, and my long-suffering family, would be only too willing to confirm! The linguistic examples in my post #263 are ones that I find ghastly. I was simply trying to make the point that we must accept that our language does change and evolve. Vinteuil and Pabmusic, and others, have pointed out -- with much more erudition than is at my command -- that this is nothing new. But as for "shoddy English", EA: I will resist that to my dying day.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

... I was simply trying to make the point that we must accept that our language does change and evolve. Vinteuil and Pabmusic, and others, have pointed out -- with much more erudition than is at my command -- that this is nothing new. But as for "shoddy English", EA: I will resist that to my dying day.

Ah, I see where you are coming from. Language does indeed change and evolve, but I would argue that a ship needs to be steered and cared for, as does our language.
Also, thank you for your kind words.

[Pabmusic]

I like Pabmusic's quote from Caxton...

It's from the prologue to Eneydos. Here's more, with a lovely anecdote. He's complaining that the "comyn Englysshe that is spoken in one shyre varyeth from a nother":

In so moche that in my dayes happened that certayne marchaunts were in a shippe in Tamyse [the Thames] for to have sayled ouer the see into Zeland [Zealand - northern Netherlands], and for lacke of wynde thei tarryed atte forlond, and wente to lande for to refreshe them. And one of theym named Sheffelde, a mercer, cam into an hows and axed for mete, and specyally he axed after eggys. And the good wyf answerde that she coude speke no Frenshe. And the marchaunt was angry, for he also coude speke no Frenshe, but wold haue hadde egges, and she vnderstood hym not. And thenne at last a nother sayd that he wold haue eyren. Then the good wyf sayd that she vnderstood hym wel. Loo! What sholde a man in thyse dayse now wryte, egges or eyren? Certaynly, it is hard to playse euery man by cause of dyuersite & chaunge of langage. For in these dayes euery man that is in ony reputacyon in his countrie wyll vtter his commynycacyon and matters in such manners & termes that fewe men shall vnderstonde theym. And some honest and grete clerkes haue ben wyth me and desired me to wryte the most curyous termes that I coude fynde. And thus between playne rude & curyous I stande abasshed. But in my iudgemente the comyn themes that be dayli vsed ben lyghter to be vnderstonde than the olde and auncyent englysshe. [All punctuation modernised.]

a nother = as 'a noncle' became 'an uncle', this became 'an other' or 'another'
atte forland = at a headland
an hows suggests that the 'h' was silent.
axed = asked. Still found in some British and US dialects
mete = food in general (it's meat and drink to me)
wyf = a (mature) female person, rather than a wife. Think of midwife, a female who stays 'mid' ('with' - think of the German 'mit') the mother-to-be.
man = still usually as in modern German, Dutch and Scandanavian usage - a general term for a person. 'Woman' incidentally comes from wyfman - female person.
marchaunt = merchant, originally a French word. The -au- spelling probably imitates a French sound.
haue and vtter - 'v and 'u' were the same letter ('u') with a consonantal form and a vowel form. Caxton usually uses 'u' for the consonantal sound (our 'v') and 'v' for the vowel sound (our 'u').
eyren = eggs, in the Kentish dialect. Note the Old English -en plural. I've read that, if Winchester had remained the capital, -en would probably be our usual plural form.
by cause of dyuersite = because of diversity
chaunge = the spelling probably reflects a French pronunciation
iudgemente = there was no agreed letter 'j' until the 19th Century. 'j' was usually used by clerks to represent the consonantal 'i' at the start of words. Caxton sticks with 'i'.
lyghter = 'gh' would still have been sounded as the gutteral -ch in 'loch'.


A truly wonderful passage that's really quite easy to read when your mind adjusts. He's considering just what type of English to commit to print, and his decision (the modern speech of London - or more properly East Midlands dialect) had the most profound effect on English.

[mangerton]

Pabmusic, that was a fascinating "commynycacyon". Thanks for posting.

[Extended Play]

Pabmusic, that was a fascinating "commynycacyon". Thanks for posting.

Much appreciated here, too. Thank you.

[handsomefortune]

amongst other things, it demonstrates an awful lot about the willingness of the reader to understand content, regardless of form.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

amongst other things, it demonstrates an awful lot about the willingness of the reader to understand content, regardless of form.

But in modern English, the main responsibility of making the text comprehensible lies with the writer.

[vinteuil]

Language does indeed change and evolve, but I would argue that a ship needs to be steered and cared for, as does our language.
:

Alpensinfonie - for you, who should be the 'guardians' of the language, other than those who use it?
Where do we find 'authority'?

[french frank]

Alpensinfonie - for you, who should be the 'guardians' of the language, other than those who use it?
Where do we find 'authority'?

We'd need an English Académie française, vinteuil!

[MrGongGong]

We'd need an English Académie française, vinteuil!

really ?
and do you think we need a similar one for music ?

[Serial_Apologist]

We'd need an English Académie française, vinteuil!

Le Weekend??

[vinteuil]

We'd need an English Académie française, vinteuil!

... thank the lord we don't have one!

If I remember aright we almost did have one* - preparations were afoot - and then the Queen [Anne] died, and the plans were abandoned.

No, I'm quite against the idea of Forty Immortals telling us what is Right and Proper...

* - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposa...nglish_Academy


EDIT - from wiki :

"Jonathan Swift in his Proposal for Correcting, Improving and Ascertaining the English Tongue, advocated an academy for regulating the English language. In the form of a call for a "national dictionary" to regulate the English language, on the French model, this conception had much support from Augustan men of letters: Defoe, Joseph Addison (The Spectator 135 in 1711) and Alexander Pope. At the end of Queen Anne's reign some royal backing was again possible, but that ended with the change of monarch in 1714. The whole idea later met stern opposition, however, from the lexicographer Samuel Johnson, invoking "English liberty" against the prescription involved: he predicted disobedience of an academy supposed to set usage."

Dr Johnson once again gets it right

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Alpensinfonie - for you, who should be the 'guardians' of the language, other than those who use it?
Where do we find 'authority'?

Did I really use the word "guardians"? I think not.
What I did say was that it needed to be steered and cared for. That is up to all of us. As it is, there is the very real possibility of the people who use the language sloppily of having undue influence. There are even teachers who write on their pupils' work such comments as:

"I'm sure you could of written it alot neater." Of course, everyone, including teachers, make mistakes from time to time, but three written errors in one sentence?

It could have been a lot (or alot) worse:

"im shor u cudov ritn it alot nEta"