Pedants' Paradise

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  • handsomefortune

    An assortment of texts are studied which show how standards in Classical Latin were affected by popular forms. (Bishop) Gregory of Tours wrote a history in the 6th century - in Latin but he apologised that he hadn't been properly instructed in grammar. The important thing, though, is that works were written, and that they are comprehensible.

    at least gregory was honest!

    graffiti can be incomprehensible to a reader, but it doesn't mean that the statement it makes isn't honest. i'm looking forward to r3 'jazz on 3's union of jazz/graffiti discussion, (though it's probably two potentially huge subjects briefly skimmed over, but smoothly presented).

    'mendacious' Geoffrey of Monmouth) was geoffrey what we might refer to as 'controversial' today, as he presumably bucked previous trends in some way...?

    the versions of 'history' differ wildly and much is theory and speculation. It's a matter of studying all the sources and finding how far they agree with each other, or whether one was simply getting its information from an earlier text.

    maybe re presenting the same info, but under a different author's name? sometimes style over content applies, sort of 're formatting', or changing the book cover in contemporary times! i am interested in an artist who in the 60s, required students to pulverise a specific art historical and crititical text, by literally chewing it. he was fired from st martins, when he returned the book to the art school library, in compressed form, conveyed within (several) jam jars. i can't help but admire his passion and commitment! especially the wider point he made in the importance of choosing one art historical criticism over another/ over and above the importance of his own career and income, and even though theoretically, ideally books shouldn't be destroyed.

    and then the universities were founded, and that was the end of it, as far as women were concerned, until about 1910.

    shocking though this piece of historical info is, it gets more and more shocking as you get older....not less! it's not common knowledge that historically, religion may have ever helped the education of women, and certainly not to equal standards of male religious scholars!

    i am interested in the rise and rise in the 2000s, of the phrase which often precedes remarks, 'i have to say'. i think it's become very oddly used, often to state quite monotonous, unremarkable, bland contributions.

    at work perhaps it's actually used to support the idea that the speaker is towing the line politically, might hope to reflect professional reticence, and align to pecking orders.

    whereas informally, rather than revealing something difficult, truely controversial, or confessional 'i have to say' can also be typically disappointing imv.

    when the expression first evolved, i found i mistakenly braced myself, due to the implied urgency in 'i have to'! then i got used to what i find a more robotic, or habitual useage, and learned to expect no drama, and perhaps only trivia instead of any controversy. it was, and probably still is popular in media language, though its useage can vary. it might aim to be more assertive, for instance, i can imagine mr gove using it for instance, as well as more casual female presenters on friendly day time tv shows.

    i'm sure my pet fascination probably says more about me, than anything about the phrase itself, from a linguistic perspective. perhaps 'i have to say' says most about my own interpretation of the early 21st c. my mental response to the phrase can be 'who told you that you 'had to'?, and even 'when did you lose all autonomy'? also a rather aggressive 'big deal' .........mainly as 'i have to say' rarely sounds worthwhile somehow, or authentic, as i find what follows invariably disappoints, after the drama implied in 'i have to'.

    Comment

    • gurnemanz
      Full Member
      • Nov 2010
      • 7420

      "I have to say" (colloquially "I gotta say") seems to me to be a US-preferred version of "I must say" (or "I'm bound to say") which Brits might more often use. Aren't all the variants virtually devoid of meaning, coming into the category space-fillers or so-called "phatic" communication?

      Comment

      • Eine Alpensinfonie
        Host
        • Nov 2010
        • 20576

        It's all part of linguistic inflation, leading to such phrases as "past history" or "future planning". No-one has to say anything. It's a choice.

        Comment

        • Flosshilde
          Full Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 7988

          Originally posted by gurnemanz View Post
          "I have to say" (colloquially "I gotta say") seems to me to be a US-preferred version of "I must say" (or "I'm bound to say") which Brits might more often use. Aren't all the variants virtually devoid of meaning, coming into the category space-fillers or so-called "phatic" communication?
          Is "I must say" the same as, or related to, "I say!", which is (a rather old-fashioned) form of protest - "I say, old chap, that's a bit strong!"?

          Comment

          • Extended Play

            In last weekend's Financial Times magazine:

            p.43: "Chocolate and coffee tart sung from the plate....."
            p.53: "Who sung Britain's biggest-ever-selling football song?"

            Please tell me I'm wrong to be worried about this.

            Comment

            • french frank
              Administrator/Moderator
              • Feb 2007
              • 30537

              Originally posted by Extended Play View Post
              In last weekend's Financial Times magazine:

              p.43: "Chocolate and coffee tart sung from the plate....."
              p.53: "Who sung Britain's biggest-ever-selling football song?"

              Please tell me I'm wrong to be worried about this.
              Do German speakers also say gesangen? Or ich sung?

              (What does that first quote mean?)
              It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

              Comment

              • gurnemanz
                Full Member
                • Nov 2010
                • 7420

                Originally posted by french frank View Post
                Do German speakers also say gesangen? Or ich sung?

                (What does that first quote mean?)
                English speakers frequently mix up past participles and the simple past tense. "Began/begun" is another common offender and "The boy done good" type of utterance. It may be because the two verb forms are so often identical, as with all regular verbs that add -ed for both (eg played) and many irregular verbs (lost, set, read, got, hit, hurt, bet, built, burst, stood and many more).

                There is no excuse, in my view, for not bothering to try and get things right but I can see that ones that vary, such as sang/sung, rang/rung, stank/stunk might be confused with ones that don't, such as flung/flung, stung/stung, stuck/stuck.

                In German, past participles and the simple past tenses are rarely identical and the past participle is usually marked by beginning ge- which makes it easy to distinguish. So I suppose it is less likely that Germans might confuse them.

                Comment

                • mangerton
                  Full Member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 3346

                  Originally posted by gurnemanz View Post
                  English speakers frequently mix up past participles and the simple past tense. "Began/begun" is another common offender and "The boy done good" type of utterance. It may be because the two verb forms are so often identical, as with all regular verbs that add -ed for both (eg played) and many irregular verbs (lost, set, read, got, hit, hurt, bet, built, burst, stood and many more).

                  There is no excuse, in my view, for not bothering to try and get things right but I can see that ones that vary, such as sang/sung, rang/rung, stank/stunk might be confused with ones that don't, such as flung/flung, stung/stung, stuck/stuck.

                  In German, past participles and the simple past tenses are rarely identical and the past participle is usually marked by beginning ge- which makes it easy to distinguish. So I suppose it is less likely that Germans might confuse them.
                  These errors are rife in Scotland. "I done", "I've went", "I've came". On a similar note, hung/hanged are increasingly misused these days.

                  Comment

                  • mangerton
                    Full Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 3346

                    Heard on R4's News Briefing this morning:

                    "the bomb was to be taken into an aeroplane hidden in his underpants."

                    Comment

                    • Eine Alpensinfonie
                      Host
                      • Nov 2010
                      • 20576

                      If we're going down the "tense" road, there's nothing more annoying than "I was sat", or "I'm stood here".

                      Somehow I expect it from Steph McGovern on BBC Breakfast, but surely not from the likes of Professor Brian Cox.

                      Comment

                      • scottycelt

                        Originally posted by mangerton View Post
                        These errors are rife in Scotland. "I done", "I've went", "I've came". ..
                        Indeed, these even appear to be part of the mandatory curriculum for a Scottish footballer's media education, culminating in apparent recognition by the BBC and others as being the verbal badge of authenticity.

                        Comment

                        • scottycelt

                          Originally posted by mangerton View Post
                          Heard on R4's News Briefing this morning:

                          "the bomb was to be taken into an aeroplane hidden in his underpants."
                          Presumably his fly must have been wide open, mangerton ...?

                          Comment

                          • jean
                            Late member
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 7100

                            Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
                            If we're going down the "tense" road, there's nothing more annoying than "I was sat", or "I'm stood here".
                            It's a common variant in the North of England. If I were you I'd try to stop being so amnnoyed, because it's not going to go away.

                            Comment

                            • Nick Armstrong
                              Host
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 26577

                              Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
                              If we're going down the "tense" road, there's nothing more annoying than "I was sat", or "I'm stood here".
                              I've heard in Yorkshire "I was stood standin' there"...

                              How d'ya like them apples, Alpie?
                              "...the isle is full of noises,
                              Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
                              Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
                              Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices..."

                              Comment

                              • Pabmusic
                                Full Member
                                • May 2011
                                • 5537

                                Originally posted by scottycelt View Post
                                Presumably his fly must have been wide open, mangerton ...?
                                Is that an aeroplane in your pants, or are you just pleased to fly with me?

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