Pedants' Paradise

[Pabmusic]

EA: the missing L might be Websterisms.

Yes, it's one of Noah Webster's 1789 ideas for reforming spelling that did catch on (many didn't).

As to the pronunciation of 'l' in words like could and would (and RVW's Ralph), the situation is a bit complicated. Many words were affected by an academic trend mainly from the 16th, 17th and 18th Centuries that sought to emphasise the classical roots of English. For instance 'plumb' and 'debt' gained their 'b' (from plumbum and debitum), 'indict' and 'verdict' their 'c' (we even adopted a different pronunciation eventually for verdict), 'autumn' gained an 'n' and so on. I'm pretty sure that Ralph gained an 'l' in this way, since the name began as a contraction of Rafael (which explains the 'Rafe' pronunciation); the more usual modern pronunciation is a later one influenced by the spelling change.

'Would', 'could' and 'should' are Anglo-Saxon and thus have been around for some 1500 years - plenty of time for pronunciations to change at a different pace than the spelling. 'Would' is from 'wolde' (that which is willed or desired) and would have been pronounced as two syllables, but as English lost most of its case endings, 'wolde' became 'wold' (or at least the 'e' fell silent) - and the 'ld' is not especially easy to say after a closed vowel such as the schwa-like 'ou', since the tongue is not in a good position. That is, unless it separates two syllables as it used to. I'm not sure where the 'u' came from, though.*

I'll take off my anorak now...

*[Putting the anorak back on] It seems that 'would' and 'should' always had 'l's - wolde and scolde/sholde (sc- is sh- in Anglo-Saxon) but 'could' didn't (A-S cuthe, Middle English coude), so I imagine it picked up the 'l' later in imitation of would and should. 'Coude' of course has a 'u', which might have influenced the other two in turn. Or it might have been part of the 'Frechifying' of English in the 17th and 18th Centuries (as when we started to put a 'u' in colour, favour and other words - though I think it's older than this). [Anorak comes off again.]

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

EA: the missing L might be Websterisms.

I realised that, hence the emoticon. However, I cannot recall Americans missing out the "l" in "soldier" either.

As they say, "go figure."

Now that's just bad grammar - two unrelated verbs with no punctuation mark or noun between them - just like "Go compare". But we've been here before.

[french frank]

I'm pretty sure that Ralph gained an 'l' in this way, since the name began as a contraction of Rafael (which explains the 'Rafe' pronunciation); the more usual modern pronunciation is a later one influenced by the spelling change.

Not sure about that one. The French form is Raoul, which is from Radolphus (intervocalic 'd' is usually lost, giving something like *Raolf. I think that's the origin of Ralph (the 'ph', as you say, reintroduced to indicate the origin). The pronunciation Rafe may well have been influenced by Rafael - I've often wondered about that , as one does.

In posh speak the 'l' is omitted from golf, I understand. So Raff or Rafe could have similarly dropped the 'l'.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

All the Ralphs I know or have known (and that's quite a few) sound the "l". Could this be a north-south divide?

[MrGongGong]

I realised that, hence the emoticon. However, I cannot recall Americans missing out the "l" in "soldier" either.
.

It just threw me a bit the first time a technician I was working with said
I think we are going to have to do a bit of "soddering"

not sure what the Scottish cardinal would say to THAT !

[french frank]

Why is the ending of "matines" pronounced as an "a"?

Linguistically, I think that is called a "schwa". (qv)

Phonetically, it's a schwa if pronounced fully as a syllable. In ordinary speech it's impossible to sound the 'n' of 'matines' without forming a slight vowel sound at the end.

'Matines' is not a good example, but in most cases in French a final 'e' is some vestige of Latin 'a' (bonne < bona(m), ville < villa(m) ) which has gradually weakened so that it is scarcely heard at all - except when sung, as here.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Phonetically, it's a schwa if pronounced fully as a syllable. In ordinary speech it's impossible to sound the 'n' of 'matines' without forming a slight vowel sound at the end.

'Matines' is not a good example, but in most cases in French a final 'e' is some vestige of Latin 'a' (bonne < bona(m), ville < villa(m) ) which has gradually weakened so that it is scarcely heard at all - except when sung, as here.

On the other hand, in many French songs, the final "e" is swallowed up by the vowel in the next word. I've often found singing French music to be quite difficult for this reason.

[Pabmusic]

Not sure about that one. The French form is Raoul, which is from Radolphus (intervocalic 'd' is usually lost, giving something like *Raolf. I think that's the origin of Ralph (the 'ph', as you say, reintroduced to indicate the origin). The pronunciation Rafe may well have been influenced by Rafael - I've often wondered about that , as one does.

I'm speculating, truth be told. I thought I'd read something about Raphael - but, there again, my memory...

[jean]

As they say, "go figure."

Now that's just bad grammar - two unrelated verbs with no punctuation mark or noun between them...

No it's not - it's idiom, and it has a respectable history even in British English:

Come live with me and be my Love...

I think you're making the mistake of thinking that because you can't do something in Latin, you can't do it in English, either.

[french frank]

On the other hand, in many French songs, the final "e" is swallowed up by the vowel in the next word. I've often found singing French music to be quite difficult for this reason.

Is that so difficult? It's the same rule as le enfant becoming l'enfant.

There's a French song by Mozart ('Dans un bois solitaire et sombre') where at one point the music, as printed, clearly shows the pronunciation of a final 'e' before a vowel. That does fool singers because it sounds awful. Adding an extra slur to the preceding syllable solves the problem but singers seem to feel they're taking a bit of a liberty in doing that. Can't be sure whether Mozart made the (linguistic) mistake or just a mistake in writing it out. Or, of course, that the edition was at fault (my preference!).

[Pabmusic]

Not sure about that one. The French form is Raoul, which is from Radolphus (intervocalic 'd' is usually lost, giving something like *Raolf. I think that's the origin of Ralph (the 'ph', as you say, reintroduced to indicate the origin). The pronunciation Rafe may well have been influenced by Rafael - I've often wondered about that , as one does.

I'm speculating, truth be told. I thought I'd read something about Raphael - but, there again, my memory...

It seems we may both be wrong. I've tried three sources, and all give Ralph as Old Norse, from Raðulfr, or Old English from Rædwulf, both meaning 'wolf counsel'!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

No it's not - it's idiom, and it has a respectable history even in British English:.

That just means that people have been speaking incorrectly for a long time.

I think you're making the mistake of thinking that because you can't do something in Latin, you can't do it in English, either.

So at what point do you throw out the grammar rule book entirely?

[MrGongGong]

That just means that people have been speaking incorrectly for a long time.


So at what point do you throw out the grammar rule book entirely?

Which rule book is that ?

I guess you would get rid of ALL the words Shakespeare made up as well ?

Surely many "rules" (as in music theory) are retrospective ?
When I was a music student Patrick Gower's (the film composer) used to come and teach us theory. One of his favourite tricks was to play bit's of music and ask us to decide what key , period etc it was in. Usually what we would think of as being mid twentieth century music would turn out to be by Bach or Scarlatti , breaking all the "rules" of false relationships , consecutives etc etc

[Serial_Apologist]

It just amazes me that foreigners manage to learn our "language" at all!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Which rule book is that ?

I guess you would get rid of ALL the words Shakespeare made up as well ?

There's a difference between making an informed decision and showing total ignorance. It's the latter that is the problem