Pedants' Paradise

[vinteuil]

I have also learned(learnt?) while checking it on line that the American spelling is "appalls"

... I was interested to see that Fowler in the 1927 edn of Modern English Usage says 'the double L is better' ; he has not been followed in later style guides : the 2016 New Oxford Style Manual states firmly 'appal (US appall)'

EDIT - and the 1933 OED has "Both on etymological and phonetic grounds the better spelling is appall, as in the derivatives."

Fowler and 1933 OED also prefer enthrall ...



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[french frank]

... I was interested to see that Fowler in the 1927 edn of Modern English Usage says 'the double L is better' ; he has not been followed in later style guides : the 2016 New Oxford Style Manual states firmly 'appal (US appall)'

EDIT - and the 1933 OED has "Both on etymological and phonetic grounds the better spelling is appall, as in the derivatives."

The OED's first example of appal is 1771. In 1470 there is apall. The root of the word seems to be the senses of pale. The Butterfield Fowler has no preference, simply noting that one is the usual British form, the other American.

[oliver sudden]

So perhaps we can now revert to Knaben's Wunderhorn, avoiding that confusing 'des'...!

If I read the article correctly: only if it’s within a proper name. So Eva’s Bar is fine if it is a place called Eva’s Bar, but if you are just referring to a bar belonging to Eva it still has to be Evas Bar

I’ve never completely understood Des Knaben Wunderhorn. Clearly an older set of rules than the one I semi-learnt.

[oliver sudden]

The root of the word seems to be the senses of pale.

Including ‘pall’, I would surmise?

[gurnemanz]

I’ve never completely understood Des Knaben Wunderhorn. Clearly an older set of rules than the one I semi-learnt.

der Knabe (the boy, knave) is a weak masculine noun. This means it takes the -n ending in all cases, singular and plural, except nominative singular. Therefore no -s in the genitive.

There are a lot of them. They all denote people or animals, except der Wille (will) der Gedanke (thought) das Herz (heart - the only neuter weak noun). These three take both the weak -en and add an -s as well. Never an apostrophe. An example of such a genitive is Leni Riefenstahl's famous Third Reich film "Der Triumph des Willens" (the Triumph of the Will).

explained here

[Serial_Apologist]

So enthralling, enthralled, enthrall? Rivalling, rivalled, rivall? Spiralling, spiralled, spirall?

No: enthral/enthralled; rival/rivalled; travel/travelled as opposed to the American, traveled, etc. It's the simple doubling of the consonant applied with add-ons to verb endings that we learned at school in the 1950s and 50s: we've often discussed it here as fast disappearing.

[vinteuil]

No: enthral/enthralled; rival/rivalled; travel/travelled...

serial : I think ff's # 6793 was meant as a nudge to test your assertion in your # 6792 that the word was appall.

My # 6796 showed that there is room for appall and appal



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[oliver sudden]

der Knabe (the boy, knave) is a weak masculine noun. This means it takes the -n ending in all cases, singular and plural, except nominative singular. Therefore no -s in the genitive.

There are a lot of them. They all denote people or animals, except der Wille (will) der Gedanke (thought) das Herz (heart - the only neuter weak noun). These three take both the weak -en and add an -s as well. Never an apostrophe. An example of such a genitive is Leni Riefenstahl's famous Third Reich film "Der Triumph des Willens" (the Triumph of the Will).

explained here

Thanks! But it’s really the word order that puzzles me rather than the declension itself. As if (sticking with Mahler) we were to have Des fahrenden Gesellen Lieder…

[vinteuil]

Including ‘pall’, I would surmise?

... more than probably. I only have access to an early (1933) OED : I'm sure French Frank will have access to a more current one, and the etymology may by now have been worked out more fully. But pale, pall, appal(l) are all linked, not necessarily in obvious ways...

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[Serial_Apologist]

serial : I think ff's # 6793 was meant as a nudge to test your assertion in your # 6792 that the word was appall.

My # 6796 showed that there is room for appall and appal



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Thanks for correcting me vints.

[french frank]

No: enthral/enthralled; rival/rivalled; travel/travelled as opposed to the American, traveled, etc. It's the simple doubling of the consonant applied with add-ons to verb endings that we learned at school in the 1950s and 50s: we've often discussed it here as fast disappearing.

As vinteuil has pointed out, I was giving examples that didn't work! US travel/traveled demonstrates a certain orneriness (or divergent historical development). I limited my examples to verbs ending in -al rather than -el as the verb we were discussing was appal(l).

[french frank]

And thinking about the verb to enthral, I thought it must be connected with in thrall and thraldom (in US also thralldom). Yes, Bosworth-Toller says þrǽl is a slave or servant. The verb to enthral has therefore undergone a weakening of meaning, akin to captivated..

[vinteuil]

No: enthral/enthralled; rival/rivalled; travel/travelled as opposed to the American, traveled, etc. It's the simple doubling of the consonant applied with add-ons to verb endings that we learned at school in the 1950s ...

... ah yes, the doubling of consonants with suffixes : I remember it well.
With the stumbling-block exceptions -

appealing, paralleled, travailed

[Nick Armstrong]

serial : I think ff's # 6793 was meant as a nudge to test your assertion in your # 6792 that the word was appall.

My # 6796 showed that there is room for appall and appal

Talking of which, am I unreasonable to have been appalled that a person whose profession concerns lexicography and languages (the guest on Private Passions today) should have pronounced ‘Montreux’ Mon trou ?

[vinteuil]

Talking of which, am I unreasonable to have been appalled that a person whose profession concerns lexicography and languages (the guest on Private Passions today) should have pronounced ‘Montreux’ Mon trou ?

... ah, cobber - the sheila's Strine



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