Pedants' Paradise

[oddoneout]

Could just have said "the" in both cases, but I suppose, as a person in an official capacity, due attention has to be paid to the current approved-speak.

[french frank]

Could just have said "the" in both cases, but I suppose, as a person in an official capacity, due attention has to be paid to the current approved-speak.

Or not so much the 'current-approved speech', as the gradually normalised form perhaps? 'His' and 'her' &c starting to go the same way as 'thee' and 'thou', and no longer used?

[Sir Velo]

'His' and 'her' &c starting to go the same way as 'thee' and 'thou', and no longer used?

Because you're making assumptions about their (sic) gender identity.

[french frank]

Because you're making assumptions about their (sic) gender identity.

Of course. Also I think it may be, because English people are notoriously bad at languages, English does its best to simplify itself as much as possible for its users. I'm trying to think whether any other language abandoned the 2nd person singular pronoun and possessives?

[LMcD]

Of course. Also I think it may be, because English people are notoriously bad at languages, English does its best to simplify itself as much as possible for its users. I'm trying to think whether any other language abandoned the 2nd person singular pronoun and possessives?

The teaching of modern languages in the UK is trapped in a vicious circle. Fewer schoolchildren get a chance to learn them, probably because they're the first courses to be dropped when savings need to be made, and so fewer students study them at university and so fewer graduates are qualified to teach modern languages. It's hard to believe now, but from the age of 14 I was studying German for 8 periods a week and French for another 4 (made possible by dropping a number of other subjects). .Oh yes, and I also studied a third language - Latin - at 'A' level .

[kernelbogey]

Sign of the times, FF

Perhaps I'm behind the curve here, but I believed that the they/their convention was adopted only by request of the subject who considered themself to be gender-fluid, and wished that to be recognised in pronouns used. I have not come across any generalised practice of saying they/their etc otherwise.

[Old Grumpy]

Yes - but in this case the subject could not be asked. It is perhaps sometimes difficult to know how not to cause offence in these situations.

[french frank]

Perhaps I'm behind the curve here, but I believed that the they/their convention was adopted only by request of the subject who considered themself to be gender-fluid, and wished that to be recognised in pronouns used. I have not come across any generalised practice of saying they/their etc otherwise.

That may be the case if you're referring to a particular 21st century individual. It happens if it's one unknown person e.g. "Whoever left their orange gym shoes in the gym this morning can collect them from the secretary's office.")

Afterthought: Could possibly be two one-legged people who both left an orange gym shoe behind, I suppose

[oddoneout]

Perhaps I'm behind the curve here, but I believed that the they/their convention was adopted only by request of the subject who considered themself to be gender-fluid, and wished that to be recognised in pronouns used. I have not come across any generalised practice of saying they/their etc otherwise.

Organisations may have adopted a particular approach. Colleagues working in the office side of my former place of work have to indicate on their communications their "preferred pronoun" amongst the various other details about job title etc, so I assume there is also guidance about how they refer to or address other people where the situation may be unknown. A few of the youngsters coming through on some outreach or training placements use the newer forms, which does require a bit more care to avoid confusion between reference to an individual or a group when writing about the activities.

[Serial_Apologist]

That may be the case if you're referring to a particular 21st century individual. It happens if it's one unknown person e.g. "Whoever left their orange gym shoes in the gym this morning can collect them from the secretary's office.")

Afterthought: Could possibly be two one-legged people who both left an orange gym shoe behind, I suppose

Or two or more sharing the same gym shoes!

[Serial_Apologist]

Organisations may have adopted a particular approach. Colleagues working in the office side of my former place of work have to indicate on their communications their "preferred pronoun" amongst the various other details about job title etc, so I assume there is also guidance about how they refer to or address other people where the situation may be unknown. A few of the youngsters coming through on some outreach or training placements use the newer forms, which does require a bit more care to avoid confusion between reference to an individual or a group when writing about the activities.

Wouldn't the context usually be enough to explain the "theirs"?

[oddoneout]

Wouldn't the context usually be enough to explain the "theirs"?

It's they/their that aren't always clear eg "Jay explained their approach..." might mean Jay's approach or that of the group of which Jay is a member, and lack of care or writing skill doesn't make clear which it is.

[Serial_Apologist]

It's they/their that aren't always clear eg "Jay explained their approach..." might mean Jay's approach or that of the group of which Jay is a member, and lack of care or writing skill doesn't make clear which it is.

That's true.

[Pulcinella]

Of course. Also I think it may be, because English people are notoriously bad at languages, English does its best to simplify itself as much as possible for its users. I'm trying to think whether any other language abandoned the 2nd person singular pronoun and possessives?

Somewhat related:

American usage has 'solved' the singular/plural you ambiguity by using 'yous guys' or 'y'all'.

Italians seem to have dropped their formal Lei/Loro pronouns.

[french frank]

Italians seem to have dropped their formal Lei/Loro pronouns.

Which would be the equivalent of Spanish Usted/Ustedes which are distinct 'respectful' forms. But don't they still have forms derived from Latin vos/vester (voster) for use among amici/amigos as well as some of the tu (ton ta/tes &c?). By comparison English you/your(s) seems paltry.