Pedants' Paradise

[french frank]

I didn't know that, Bryn! But, as a tribute to your perspicacity, I've corrected my typo!

(No you haven't - yet - oh, yes you have!)

[Serial_Apologist]

(No you haven't - yet - oh, yes you have!)

Along with the huge range of opinions on this forum, we have many typos.

[Bryn]

I didn't know that, Bryn! But, as a tribute to your perspicacity, I've corrected my typo!

Ah, now that clarifies, for me, what you were getting at.

[Pulcinella]

Ah, now that clarifies, for me, what you were getting at.

Whereas your post at first confused me, as, with the quote being all italic, the subtleties of different syllabic stresses (rather than spelling) had got lost!

[french frank]

Confusion? As far as the latest twist in the Johnson saga is concerned, I'm pondering:

'No 10 said neither ministers nor the PM were not involved in the decision.' So what is No 10 saying, or not saying? Or what is the BBC not saying No 10 is not saying or saying?

[Serial_Apologist]

Confusion? As far as the latest twist in the Johnson saga is concerned, I'm pondering:

'No 10 said neither ministers nor the PM were not involved in the decision.' So what is No 10 saying, or not saying? Or what is the BBC not saying No 10 is not saying or saying?

Evidently I'm not the only one who gets tied up in knots over double negatives!

[oddoneout]

Confusion? As far as the latest twist in the Johnson saga is concerned, I'm pondering:

'No 10 said neither ministers nor the PM were not involved in the decision.' So what is No 10 saying, or not saying? Or what is the BBC not saying No 10 is not saying or saying?

To me that reads as both the PM and ministers were involved - however I haven't read any more than the quote here to determine the likely level of obfuscation and deflection.

[oddoneout]

Evidently I'm not the only one who gets tied up in knots over double negatives!

In this neck of the woods double negatives are normal - it's when you get to the triples that things can get a bit knotty on occasion.

[Pulcinella]

In this neck of the woods double negatives are normal - it's when you get to the triples that things can get a bit knotty on occasion.

Well, we wouldn't want you to think that there's nothing that couldn't be done to not have such a knotty problem occurring in future.

[ahinton]

Well, we wouldn't want you to think that there's nothing that couldn't be done to not have such a knotty problem occurring in future.

Even if it involved splitting an infinitive?...

[french frank]

Anyway, an update now reads:

'Downing Street rejected suggestions Mr Johnson was the victim of a stitch up, stressing that neither ministers nor the PM were involved in the process'

Even in this form, I would say 'neither ministers ... nor the PM was involved', but that's just what sounds right to me and what I think I would say (not absolutely sure about what I would say). OTOH, if 'ministers' is taken as a plural, rather than a singular [number non-specific] group, I see a 'rule' which says the plural term should come second, with a plural verb. 'Neither the PM nor ministers were involved.' Discuss.

[Pulcinella]

Even if it involved splitting an infinitive?...

Most definitely.
A stupid 'rule' driven by the fact that the Latin infinitive never gets split!

Anyway, an update now reads:

'Downing Street rejected suggestions Mr Johnson was the victim of a stitch up, stressing that neither ministers nor the PM were involved in the process'

Even in this form, I would say 'neither ministers ... nor the PM was involved', but that's just what sounds right to me and what I think I would say (not absolutely sure about what I would say). OTOH, if 'ministers' is taken as a plural, rather than a singular [number non-specific] group, I see a 'rule' which says the plural term should come second, with a plural verb. 'Neither the PM nor ministers were involved.' Discuss.

Verb number usually chosen to agree with closest subject; I agree that 'neither the PM nor any ministers were' then sounds better than 'neither ministers nor the PM was', so I'd write the sentence that way round.
End of discussion.

[vinteuil]

Verb number usually chosen to agree with closest subject; I agree that 'neither the PM nor any ministers were' then sounds better than 'neither ministers nor the PM was', so I'd write the sentence that way round.
End of discussion.

... I agree with Fr: Fr: and Pulcinella that - in terms of syntax - 'neither the PM nor any ministers were' may be preferable. However there is a semantic argument that here you shd start with what is in this case, in political and news-worthy terms, the less significant - 'not the ministers' - and build up to the greater - 'not even the Prime Minister' (or 'and specifically not the Prime Minister'). I feel there is some strength in that argument.


.

[vinteuil]

.

BBC news website : "Man found guilty of unsolved 1991 murder"

ermmm???

.

[Serial_Apologist]

In this neck of the woods double negatives are normal - it's when you get to the triples that things can get a bit knotty on occasion.

That's cool, I got time on me 'ands - ain't not going nowhere tonight!