Pedants' Paradise

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Ah, a quotation from the great George Dubya.

[french frank]

To which I think you could add garage, barage, visage, homage and the rest of those -age words, where the older British English pronunciation (emphasis on the first syllable, with the second pronounced -idge) has largely given way to the American/pseudo-French one.

I once said garidge (now garahge), but never baridge (always barahge). Definitely visidge, never visahge. But always stressed on the first syllable à l'anglaise rather than the second à l'américaine.

[gurnemanz]

Odd that sometimes it works the other way with GB speakers stressing the final syllable and US the first: address, moustache, cigarette, magazine ..

[Pabmusic]

I once said garidge (now garahge), but never baridge (always barahge). Definitely visidge, never visahge. But always stressed on the first syllable à l'anglaise rather than the second à l'américaine.

My mother and father always said "barridge balloon". Mum still does.

I say garidge, and always have (though sometimes nowadays there is a conscious intent to pronounce it that way - which there never used to be).

I'd always say visidge, too (though I can't think when - perhaps when I've read something).

On a related point, I have read that for most of Elgar's life - and especially the formative years - people pronounced 'Edward' with both syllables stressed, but the second more so, and 'ward' having a flat sound (rather like the German Eduard). The Edwardian period was the EDWAHdian one. 'Elgar' was, of course, ELLguh, so he pronounced his own name exactly opposite to how we generally do now - EDWAHd ELLguh.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

In Bridlington last week.

[french frank]

I'm moved to comment here about the 'real v fake' thread elsewhere. Why have people suddenly started referring to 'Meegeren' rather than 'Van Meegeren'? Van Meegeren was Dutch and the authoritative convention (Wikipedia ) is that for indexing purposes (common sense, really) the name would appear as Meegeren, Han van. When neither forename nor initials are included the form is Van (Gogh, Meegeren, Dyck, Eyck). There is some variation in English as to whether the 'v' should be capitalised in all cases.

In Belgium, the convention is slightly different - Mr Van Rompuy is indexed as Van Rompuy, Eric; presumably because there are fewer 'Vans' in Belgium?

Please correct any inaccuracies here, but since I've always referred to Van Meegeren (like the BBC), it just sounds plain wrong to see him referred to as Meegeren - like referring to Charles de Gaulle as 'Gaulle'.

[Don Petter]

I'm moved to comment here about the 'real v fake' thread elsewhere. Why have people suddenly started referring to 'Meegeren' rather than 'Van Meegeren'? Van Meegeren was Dutch and the authoritative convention (Wikipedia ) is that for indexing purposes (common sense, really) the name would appear as Meegeren, Han van. When neither forename nor initials are included the form is Van (Gogh, Meegeren, Dyck, Eyck). There is some variation in English as to whether the 'v' should be capitalised in all cases.

In Belgium, the convention is slightly different - Mr Van Rompuy is indexed as Van Rompuy, Eric; presumably because there are fewer 'Vans' in Belgium?

Please correct any inaccuracies here, but since I've always referred to Van Meegeren (like the BBC), it just sounds plain wrong to see him referred to as Meegeren - like referring to Charles de Gaulle as 'Gaulle'.

Perhaps that is the clue. This isn't the real Van Meegeren?

[vinteuil]

In Belgium, the convention is slightly different - .

... indeed it is. You need to be careful about capitalization. Wiki offers some help :

"Many Dutch names start with a prefix like van ("of/from"), de/het/'t ("the"), der ("of the"), van de/van der/van den ("of the/from the"), and in het ("in the"). Examples are 't Hooft ("the head"), de Wolff ("the wolf"), van Rijn ("from Rhine"). In the Netherlands, these prefixes are not spelled with a capital when used in combination with the first name or initial, for example Piet de Wolff or R. van Rijn. In all other cases a capital letter must be used, for example, de heer Van Kampen, or when preceded by an academic title as in dr. Van Wijk.

In Belgium, this capitalization practice is not followed; prefixes in most common Dutch names are always capitalized, though occasionally 'Van de' occurs whereas another family may have the otherwise identical name spelled as 'Van De'. Also, prepositions can be merged with the surname (such as Vandecasteele), or can be separate (Van De Casteele), and a few combinations occur (Vande Casteele). These variations indicate different families and not all names exist with several spellings. (More on this under Tussenvoegsels.)

When van is followed by the name of a place or area, this may (but usually does not) indicate that a person belongs to the nobility or royalty such as van Tuyll van Serooskerken. This usage exists also in Flemish names, though its nobility usually obtained the French prefix 'de'. In Dutch aristocratic names, the prefix is never capitalized. This results in people being very strict about whether the prefix in someone's name should be capitalized or not, and in emigrants from the Netherlands always having an uncapitalized prefix. Van can also indicate that a person is from a certain farm. The ancestors of the Dutch soprano Elma van Den Dool lived on a farm called Den Dool. The first letter of Den gets capitalised (she is from Den Dool).

In name directories in the Netherlands, the prefixes are always ignored for sorting (e.g. Van Rijn is ordered under 'R'). A Dutch surname may often contain an article and/or a preposition, preceding the noun. Sometimes these have been merged with the name. Many Dutch surnames originated from different personal qualities, geographical locations, and occupations. However, Dutch names in English directories (e.g. reference lists of scientific papers) may be ordered on the full name including all prefixes (Van Rijn would be ordered under 'V'), partly because many Dutch emigrant families to English-speaking countries have had their prefixes capitalized for them, whether they liked it or not, like Martin Van Buren or Steve Van Dyck, and normal practise in English is to order on the first capitalized element.

In Belgium, all prefixes are always included for sorting.

In the Dutch language, many names use certain qualifying words (prepositions) positioned between a person's given name and their surname. Although these words, tussenvoegsels, are not strictly essential to state the person's surname, they are nevertheless a part of the surname and are almost always included for clarity.

In the Netherlands, for example, someone whose family name is "De Vries" is not found at the letter "D" in the telephone directory but at "V;" the "de" is a tussenvoegsel and is not a part of the indexing process but rather is more of a stylistic qualifier. The major reason for this methodology is that it makes finding someone's name in a database relatively easy, since most Dutch prepositions start with the same letter (and thus if the prepositions led, there would be constant superfluous data entry to arrive at the desired name). However, when referencing these types of Dutch names in English scientific papers, authors will always use the full name "De Vries". It is clear this often creates some confusion.

This system used in the Netherlands is not applicable to foreign names, although some libraries in the Netherlands as well as all official institutions in the Netherlands do. The Flemish names "Van der Velde" or "Van Beethoven" for instance, may never be changed in directories. Citizens or authors have to insist for this 'derogation'. In general, 'splitting' the surname is used only in the Netherlands for Dutch names composed of a preposition preceding the main word.

The above technique is not used in Flanders, where surnames are always kept to their full length, including the prepositions. In a telephone directory the name "De Vries" can be found only at the "D". This system is used throughout Belgium (and Flanders) and is consistent with the international way of listing surnames.

In the Netherlands, the tussenvoegsel is written with a capital letter if no name or initial precedes it. For example:
a person with the name "Jan" as a given name and "de Vries" as a surname would be written "Jan de Vries" or "J. de Vries".
Moreover, "de heer De Vries" would mean, literally, "Mr. De Vries" - since the tussenvoegsel is capitalized when a first name or initial is not present.


In Flanders tussenvoegsels of personal names always keep their original orthography: "mevrouw van der Velde", "mevrouw J. van der Velde", and "Jan Van den Broeke".
"

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Beethoven?

But I agree - "Goch" just sounds wrong (outside of Wales). I've always used the lower case "v" (Ludwig van Beethoven; Vincent van Goch; Laurents van der Post etc) just as I use lower case "d" in "de Gaulle", "du Pre", Rebecca etc).

[Bryn]

Beethoven?

But I agree - "Goch" just sounds wrong (outside of Wales).

Hmm, but the Welsh "Goch" is pronounced very differently from the Dutch "Gogh", is it not? (Well, by Welsh and Dutch native speakers respectively, anyway.).

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Hmm, but the Welsh "Goch" is pronounced very differently from the Dutch "Gogh", is it not? (Well, bu Welsh and Dutch native speakers respectively, anyway.).

Yes - isn't Vincent's surname pronounced "vaan Hoe" (or near) by the Dutch?

[gurnemanz]

Yes - isn't Vincent's surname pronounced "vaan Hoe" (or near) by the Dutch?

Both first and last h seem to be aspirated guttural as in German Bach. http://www.forvo.com/word/vincent_van_gogh/

[french frank]

Beethoven?

Convention in Germany different. Ludwig seems to attract the same usage as 'von' - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe is Goethe.

I've always used the lower case "v" (Ludwig van Beethoven; Vincent van Goch; Laurents van der Post etc)

I think that's usual. It's when the family name appears without its forename, and not at the beginning of a sentence. There's a van Gogh exhibition on at the Tate (no there isn't - it's just an example). Or, there's a Van Gogh exhibition. Dutch usage appears to be to capitalise (as I would): ' een paar maanden voor Van Goghs dood' (no idea what it means :-) ). And even 'Het Van Gogh Museum in Amsterdam is gewijd aan het werk van Van Gogh en zijn tijdgenoten.') https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_van_Gogh

And, getting back, I have generally found the form Van Meegeren.

[vinteuil]

And, getting back, I have generally found the form Van Meegeren.

...



Yes, if without his first name.

In the Netherlands, these prefixes are not spelled with a capital when used in combination with the first name or initial, for example Piet de Wolff or R. van Rijn. In all other cases a capital letter must be used, for example, de heer Van Kampen, or when preceded by an academic title as in dr. Van Wijk

Henricus Antonius van Meegeren was Dutch not Belgian. Hence " Han van Meegeren" and not "Han Van Meegeren". My #1193 above was supposed to be of help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_van_Meegeren

[vinteuil]

... and talking of tussenvoegsels - why do so many - otherwise well educated - English speakers think that Edgar Degas ( also De Gas, de Gas, originally Gas... ) pronounced the first two letters of his family name to rhyme with Day rather than De? ... de La Rochefoucauld, de La Rue, de Gaulle, de Gas...