Pedants' Paradise

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  • french frank
    Administrator/Moderator
    • Feb 2007
    • 30209

    To be pedantic, however, the senior editor does not say that they have 'changed the meaning' but that the meaning will 'find its way into the dicionary'.

    I'm not sure whether the online version has already been updated (I see a quote from 2008), but the entry currently reads:

    "c. colloq. Used to indicate that some (freq. conventional) metaphorical or hyperbolical expression is to be taken in the strongest admissible sense: ‘virtually, as good as’; (also) ‘completely, utterly, absolutely’.

    Now one of the most common uses, although often considered irregular in standard English since it reverses the original sense of literally (‘not figuratively or metaphorically’).

    2008 Herald-Times (Bloomington, Indiana) 22 Oct. a8/1 ‘OMG, I literally died when I found out!’ No, you figuratively died. Otherwise, you would not be around to relay your pointless anecdote.
    It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

    Comment

    • Sir Velo
      Full Member
      • Oct 2012
      • 3225

      Call me a snob (if you like) but I'm afraid I don't take one James Redknapp for an arbiter of the correct usage of the English language.

      Comment

      • Eine Alpensinfonie
        Host
        • Nov 2010
        • 20569

        Originally posted by Sir Velo View Post
        It's still incorrect.
        It's certainly confusing. If you want to mean "literally", what do you say?

        Comment

        • french frank
          Administrator/Moderator
          • Feb 2007
          • 30209

          Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
          It's certainly confusing. If you want to mean "literally", what do you say?
          'Literally'

          I think where it is being used metaphorically ('he was literally a greyhound') it is fairly obvious that this is not to be taken - literally. The dictionary is simply clarifying that this is an extended - colloquial - usage, just in case anyone was baffled as to how anyone could have 'literally' been a greyhound.

          The BBC piece shows little understanding as to how dictionaries work.
          It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

          Comment

          • jean
            Late member
            • Nov 2010
            • 7100

            Thanks to another MB for this, from the 1911 edition of the OED:

            c. colloq. Used to indicate that some (freq. conventional) metaphorical or hyperbolical expression is to be taken in the strongest admissible sense: ‘virtually, as good as’; (also) ‘completely, utterly, absolutely’.

            Now one of the most common uses, although often considered irregular in standard English since it reverses the original sense of literally (‘not figuratively or metaphorically’).

            1769 F. Brooke Hist. Emily Montague IV. ccxvii. 83 He is a fortunate man to be introduced to such a party of fine women at his arrival; it is literally to feed among the lilies.
            1801 Spirit of Farmers' Museum 262 He is, literally, made up of marechal powder, cravat, and bootees.
            1825 J. Denniston Legends Galloway 99 Lady Kirkclaugh, who, literally worn to a shadow, died of a broken heart.
            1863 F. A. Kemble Jrnl. Resid. Georgian Plantation 105 For the last four years..I literally coined money.
            1876 ‘M. Twain’ Adventures Tom Sawyer ii. 20 And when the middle of the afternoon came, from being a poor poverty-stricken boy in the morning, Tom was literally rolling in wealth.
            1906 Westm. Gaz. 15 Nov. 2/1 Mr. Chamberlain literally bubbled over with gratitude.
            1975 Chem. Week (Nexis) 26 Mar. 10 ‘They're literally throwing money at these programs,’ said a Ford Administration official.
            2008 Herald-Times (Bloomington, Indiana) 22 Oct. a8/1 ‘OMG, I literally died when I found out!’ No, you figuratively died. Otherwise, you would not be around to relay your pointless anecdote.
            The contrast with the Second edition of 1989 is not as radical as you might think:

            b. Used to indicate that the following word or phrase must be taken in its literal sense.

            Now often improperly used to indicate that some conventional metaphorical or hyperbolical phrase is to be taken in the strongest admissible sense. (So, e.g., in quot. 1863.)

            1687 Dryden Hind & P. iii. 107 My daily bread is litt'rally implor'd. 1708 Pope Let. to H. Cromwell 18 Mar., Euery day with me is literally another yesterday for it is exactly the same. 1761–2 Hume Hist. Eng. (1806) V. lxxi. 341 He had the singular fate of dying literally of hunger. 1769 Junius Lett. xxx. 137 What punishment has he suffered? Literally none. 1839 Miss Mitford in L'Estrange Life (1870) III. vii. 100 At the last I was incapable of correcting the proofs, literally fainting on the ground. 1863 F. A. Kemble Resid. in Georgia 105 For the last four years‥I literally coined money. 1887 I. R. Lady's Ranche Life Montana 76 The air is literally scented with them all. 1902 Daily Chron. 10 Dec. 7/2 A contemporary states that Kubelik has been ‘literally coining money’ in England. 1906 Westm. Gaz. 15 Nov. 2/1 Mr. Chamberlain literally bubbled over with gratitude. 1922 R. Macaulay Mystery at Geneva xiv. 72 The things ‘they’ say! They even say‥that ‘literally’ bears the same meaning as ‘metaphorically’ (‘she was literally a mother to him,’ they will say). 1960 V. Nabokov Invitation to Beheading iii. 31 And with his eyes he literally scoured the corners of the cell. 1973 Good Food Guide 176 ‘Crabs and lobsters are literally to be found crawling round the floor waiting for an order,’ reports an early nominator.
            What's happened now is that the value-judgment improperly has gone.

            Comment

            • french frank
              Administrator/Moderator
              • Feb 2007
              • 30209

              Originally posted by jean View Post
              What's happened now is that the value-judgment improperly has gone.
              [I think your quotes are the wrong way round?]

              No value judgement - exactly! I nearly remarked that the totally uncontroversial descriptions 'colloquial', and 'considered irregular' (not even 'irregular' on its own) were used.
              It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

              Comment

              • jean
                Late member
                • Nov 2010
                • 7100

                Yes, I think so - I cribbed it all from somewhere else (And I realise you'd already posted some of the relevant part)

                But my source claimed that at least one of these was from the 1911 edition...and it can't be, can it?

                Comment

                • french frank
                  Administrator/Moderator
                  • Feb 2007
                  • 30209

                  Originally posted by jean View Post
                  But my source claimed that at least one of these was from the 1911 edition...and it can't be, can it?
                  Now I look again, no!
                  It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                  Comment

                  • french frank
                    Administrator/Moderator
                    • Feb 2007
                    • 30209

                    In fact, on checking, there was no 1911 edition since the original individual fascicles weren't completed until 1928 (started in 1884). Some confusion with the 1911 Britannica?

                    I have the compact edition which was published in 1971 and seems to be a facsimile of the 1933 edition which was the First Edition plus a supplement. The entry for 'literally' is the original with its 'improper' description.

                    The Second Edition was published in 1989 - is the BBC story about the Third Edition?

                    Add: The Third Edition is still in progress, it seems. But here's their summary as to what the OED is:

                    "The Oxford English Dictionary is not an arbiter of proper usage, despite its widespread reputation to the contrary. The Dictionary is intended to be descriptive, not prescriptive. In other words, its content should be viewed as an objective reflection of English language usage, not a subjective collection of usage ‘dos’ and ‘don’ts’. However, it does include information on which usages are, or have been, popularly regarded as ‘incorrect’. The Dictionary aims to cover the full spectrum of English language usage, from formal to slang, as it has evolved over time."

                    So the BBC story that to use 'literally' to mean 'metaphorically' isn't wrong 'because the editors of the Oxford English Dictionary have changed the definition of "literally" - so it can now be used in a similar way to "metaphorically" is silly. You have always been able to use it like that - you didn't get prosecuted. All the OED has done is described a way in which the word is commonly used.
                    Last edited by french frank; 17-08-13, 17:02.
                    It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                    Comment

                    • jean
                      Late member
                      • Nov 2010
                      • 7100

                      Originally posted by french frank View Post
                      In fact, on checking, there was no 1911 edition since the original individual fascicles weren't completed until 1928 (started in 1884). Some confusion with the 1911 Britannica?
                      I have asked my source, who is usually most meticulous, but he has not yet replied.

                      Comment

                      • french frank
                        Administrator/Moderator
                        • Feb 2007
                        • 30209

                        Originally posted by jean View Post
                        I have asked my source, who is usually most meticulous, but he has not yet replied.
                        For the record, this was my source.
                        It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                        Comment

                        • Padraig
                          Full Member
                          • Feb 2013
                          • 4220

                          So, IS it wrong to use 'literally' to mean 'metaphorically'?

                          I remember a television golf commentary from long ago, the words of which at the time I thought hilarious. The description was of a golfer making a daring run for victory in the last few holes: ''And here he comes, literally burning up the turf."

                          If you metaphorically close one eye, it looks ok, but if you look more carefully it can appear hilarious.

                          Comment

                          • french frank
                            Administrator/Moderator
                            • Feb 2007
                            • 30209

                            Originally posted by Padraig View Post
                            So, IS it wrong to use 'literally' to mean 'metaphorically'?

                            I remember a television golf commentary from long ago, the words of which at the time I thought hilarious. The description was of a golfer making a daring run for victory in the last few holes: ''And here he comes, literally burning up the turf."

                            If you metaphorically close one eye, it looks ok, but if you look more carefully it can appear hilarious.
                            Oh, we don't say it's WRONG, Padraig. Just that it appears to be used with the opposite sense to what would be deemed intuitive. But since there's really little chance of being misunderstood, those who wish to use it wr..., I mean, in that particular way, won't be sent to prison. But pedants will think you uneducated - if you can live with that!
                            It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                            Comment

                            • LeMartinPecheur
                              Full Member
                              • Apr 2007
                              • 4717

                              Originally posted by Padraig View Post
                              So, IS it wrong to use 'literally' to mean 'metaphorically'?
                              We may find out at the Day of Judgment, but until then it's just our own personal opinion. Many on this board believe it to be utterly, self-evidently wrong but that arguably just shows how out of touch and elitist we are
                              I keep hitting the Escape key, but I'm still here!

                              Comment

                              • Padraig
                                Full Member
                                • Feb 2013
                                • 4220

                                So, to recap, if you think it is wrong you could be thought elitist and out of touch, but if you think it is acceptable you could be considered uneducated.
                                If I had a towel I would throw it in, literally, except that it would be a virtual towel and a metaphorical ring, but you know what I mean.

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