Pedants' Paradise

[french frank]

A bit of legal Latin doggerel for 'the thing speaks for itself'.

Well, swipe me, as Hancock used to say. I didn't know it had any legal connection or that it was doggerel. But the Latin seemed quite correct - I had no problem in translating it: it spoke for itself, you might say I was seeking to uncover a cryptic meaning.

[Nick Armstrong]

Well, swipe me, as Hancock used to say. I didn't know it had any legal connection or that it was doggerel. But the Latin seemed quite correct - I had no problem in translating it: it spoke for itself, you might say I was seeking to uncover a cryptic meaning.

Cryptic, moi? No no...

Mind you, I was probably using the word doggerel wrongly.

[Sir Velo]

A bit of legal Latin doggerel for 'the thing speaks for itself'

Bit like Res judicata (when something has already been the subject of a legal ruling) - which led to a priceless secretarial malapropism - she heard that phrase in a dictation and typed it as "Ray and Judy Carter".... .which caused everyone to be puzzled for a while as to who these two new mystery witnesses might be. Lovely couple, the Carters...

Talking of malapropisms, I was recently bemused by some correspondence in which a client complained about a "feta compli" which had engendered some embarrassment. It took a few seconds for the penny to drop that the subject of their complaint was not a sufficiency of a certain Greek cheese...

[Nick Armstrong]

Talking of malapropisms, I was recently bemused by some correspondence in which a client complained about a "feta compli" which had engendered some embarrassment. It took a few seconds for the penny to drop that the subject of their complaint was not a sufficiency of a certain Greek cheese...

Missed that before!

This amused me today:

"I was trying to explain puns to my kleptomaniac friend today, but he kept taking things literally."

[french frank]

Reading Gonger's Indy link on Pappano, I was struck by the linguistic implications of the word 'bravissimos'.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

.... I was struck by the linguistic implications of the word 'bravissimos'.

Well, we do often speak of piano concertos and cellos so I suppose "bravissimos" is OK as a hybrid.

[Pabmusic]

Well, we do often speak of piano concertos and cellos so I suppose "bravissimos" is OK as a hybrid.

Yes. This is the issue of deciding just when a foreign loan word has been adopted into English. You still find some people using 'stadia' who would never think of saying 'gerania'. My own view is that, as soon as it has been adopted, it should be treated as being and English word unless there is already a well established conflicting usage.

[jean]

It's not quite the same as those examples though, is it? Because of course in the original Italian 'bravissimo' an adjective rather than a noun.

The Italian plural 'bravissimi' would be (and is) addressed to lots of different people all of whom deserved to be addressed as 'bravissimo' - it wouldn't denote a number of separate cries of 'bravissimo!' addressed to one person, which is what we've got here.

It's a bit like the way we talk about a number of exits when exit is really a verb in the third person singular.


.

[gurnemanz]

But of course in the original Italian 'bravissimo' an adjective rather than a noun. The Italian plural 'bravissimi' would be addressed to lots of different people all of whom deserved to be addressed as 'bravissimo' - it wouldn't denote a number of separate cries of 'bravissimo!' addressed to one person, which is what we've got here.

...and if all those people were female, I assume it would be "bravissime" (as in Così fan tutte). If "bravo!" (female brava!") is taken to be an exclamation or interjection, then more than one utterance of it would be put in the plural as in something like: "He said his thank yous".

[jean]

...and if all those people were female, I assume it would be "bravissime"...

As it is if you listen carefully to an Italian audience at the end of a concert.

[french frank]

As it is if you listen carefully to an Italian audience at the end of a concert.

I see my busy morning has resulted in a comment I thought I'd made not appearing (should have remembered to press the Post button!)

My point was that I would (personally) never call out brava, bravi or brave at a recital or concert. It would be Bravo! or nothing. (In fact, Nothing.) That's because I would be calling out in English (in this country, at least), whereas Italian audiences are invariably calling out in Italian.

The OED (as far as I remember) has all sorts of examples of general 'bravos' ringing out at the arrival of heroes and similar.

[amateur51]

I see my busy morning has resulted in a comment I thought I'd made not appearing (should have remembered to press the Post button!)

My point was that I would (personally) never call out brava, bravi or brave at a recital or concert. It would be Bravo! or nothing. (In fact, Nothing.) That's because I would be calling out in English (in this country, at least), whereas Italian audiences are invariably calling out in Italian.

Most commendable of you but what do you call out? "Oh I say, well done!"

[french frank]

Most commendable of you but what do you call out? "Oh I say, well done!"

I don't recognise the necessity of calling out. I clap with varying degrees of enthusiam.

[Serial_Apologist]

I don't recognise the necessity of calling out. I clap with varying degrees of enthusiam.

As measured on my clapometer.

[amateur51]

I don't recognise the necessity of calling out. I clap with varying degrees of enthusiam.

I think we need some guidance on what enthusiastic British-types should call out. Don't want ff hissing my 'brrrraaaavooos!' in front of the claque at St George's