Pedants' Paradise

[Serial_Apologist]

God is nominative.

it does sound unusually pro active!

Now you're being accusative!

[handsomefortune]

oh no i'm not - you are!

[Dilbert]

In all seriousness, I've often wondered why the agnus addressed in the agnus dei is not vocative case.

[Serial_Apologist]

oh no i'm not - you are!

[vinteuil]

In all seriousness, I've often wondered why the agnus addressed in the agnus dei is not vocative case.

... in John I - 29 : "Altera die vidit Ioannes Iesum venientem ad se, et ait: Ecce agnus Dei, ecce qui tollit peccatum mundi."
["The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."]

So he is saying "This is the Lamb... ": he does not say - "O Lamb... "

[Dilbert]

But, Vinteuil, in the mass the verb in the relative clause is 2nd person singular (qui tollis), followed, surely, by the imperative ora pro nobis.

Is it something to do with late, as opposed to classical, Latin?

[jean]

Not all second declension masculines in -us ever had vocatives in -e - there never was a vocative dee of deus in the classical period, for example - but it's more difficult to check for a vocative of agnus since the Romans did not commonly address lambs.

This has puzzled other people too. I found this, which suggests that it may be the transposition of vinteuil's quote above (which is not of course a vocative) to a new context that's caused the problem.

[vinteuil]

followed, surely, by the imperative ora pro nobis.

... or followed, perhaps more surely, by "miserere nobis"?

[mangerton]

... followed, perhaps more surely, by "miserere nobis"?

Yes, twice, and the third time "dona nobis pacem".

Oddly enough I was thinking about the agnus/agne question recently, and I think jean's answer in #70 is correct.

As for addressing lambs, did someone not say, on being taught that the vocative of "mensa" was used when addressing a table, "But sir, I never do".

[Dilbert]

... followed, perhaps more surely, by "miserere nobis"?

Oops, don't know my agnus dei from my santa maria

[Nick Armstrong]

Oops, don't know my agnus dei from my santa maria

What a coincidence, I always confuse my dies irae with my tuba mirum...

[ardcarp]

since the Romans did not commonly address lambs

..why did they address tables so often?

[vinteuil]

What a coincidence, I always confuse my dies irae with my tuba mirum...

... I recommend senna pods.

[jean]

Yes, twice, and the third time "dona nobis pacem".

Or dona eis requiem/dona eis requiem sempiternam as the case may be.

As for addressing lambs, did someone not say, on being taught that the vocative of "mensa" was used when addressing a table, "But sir, I never do".

That was Winston Churchill, in My Early Life (I think it's called).

The Romans probably didn't address tables - it was the modern grammarians who thought we needed to be prepared in case we might ever want to.

[mangerton]

[QUOTE=jean;152122]Or dona eis requiem/dona eis requiem sempiternam as the case may be.


That was Winston Churchill, in My Early Life (I think it's called).QUOTE]


Yes! Thank you! That was the book. I thought it was, but couldn't find it on the web, and (especially in "Pedants' Paradise) was reluctant to give a wrong attribution.

And thanks for the reminder of the "Requiem".