Pedants' Paradise

[french frank]

I think a lot of trouble would be avoided with a little more education.

Where to start? Insofar as I agree entirely that this is about education, I would say that on the one hand it's about being taught grammar in primary school and on the other about studying language/linguistics at a higher level. The more you know the easier it is to accept that 'grammar' is not some iron discipline which never changes, about what is 'correct' and what is 'incorrect'.

Language facilitates communication between people and it must evolve to reflect social changes and attitudes. You would only need to be spirited back a few hundred years to discover how shockingly 'undereducated' some of the greatest geniuses were. Most people unconsciously adapt to new usages without giving it a thought; linguists study the changes that are taking place; pedants stick with what they first learnt at school from teachers with no particular expertise in the subject.

[kernelbogey]

Most people unconsciously adapt to new usages without giving it a thought...

We are however in the unprecedented situation of a new technology - the Internet, but more specifically social media - apparently creating a division between older people who grew up before the Internet's existence and those born later whose linguistic development is seemingly dominated by this international set of digital communities - the pluralities of Facebook, X, Instagram, TikTok et al. (See also 'Rizz' thread.)

[french frank]

We are however in the unprecedented situation of a new technology - the Internet, but more specifically social media - apparently creating a division between older people who grew up before the Internet's existence and those born later whose linguistic development is seemingly dominated by this international set of digital communities - the pluralities of Facebook, X, Instagram, TikTok et al. (See also 'Rizz' thread.)

Yessindeed! (Just made that up as a word). Both my brother and my mother are/were very quick to start using new words and phrases - in my brother's case from his children, I suspect. But I did marvel at my mother toothlessly coming out with: "Too much hasshhle" or "It'sh rip-off", whereas I am somewhat resistant (and recognise the fact). One way or another we have a broad (unremarkable) or a distinctive idiolect. Some people very deliberately/consciously adopt new words and phrases once they've heard them a few times; others deliberately/consciously reject them. I find it particularly fascinating to hear what a recently-talking two-year-old comes out with - often a complete sentence which she's heard and learnt when to use.

[kernelbogey]

Yessindeed! ...my mother toothlessly coming out with: "Too much hasshhle"

I visited New Zealand as part of an international business trip in 1977. I had first (IIRC) come across 'hassle' in 1968 in California. I was amused when a Brit emigre to NZ who was helping me get around my appointments used the word - then said, sotto voce, 'Oh, sorry - hassle's a New Zealand word meaning trouble'.

[smittims]

Ah, yes, frankie. Point taken. I've met those who insist it's always 'wrong' to begin a sentence with 'And' or 'But' simply because someone told them that as a child, and they've not realised that the finest writers do it when it suits them. So I suspect 'where to start' is reading. Those who read soon find out what's effective and acceptable in practice rather than in the theory of rules which may never have existed.

I used to wonder why so many women wrote 'alright' and so few men did. Then I found the Bronte sisters (staple reading for teenage girls in my day) do it quite a lot.

[french frank]

Those who read soon find out what's effective and acceptable in practice rather than in the theory of rules which may never have existed.

The 'rules' were in most cases 'compiled' by bewhiskered Victorian gentlemen on the basis of what was then current usage. Then they published text books on the subject which were on every trainee schoolteacher's syllabus.

I used to wonder why so many women wrote 'alright' and so few men did. Then I found the Bronte sisters (staple reading for teenage girls in my day) do it quite a lot.

I'm not sure that women are the sole 'culprits' now, but if they were they will probably become trailblazers in setting a new norm. Good heavens! They'll be writing 'all ready' for already next. One might say, "But 'all ready' and 'already' have different meanings'. But 'all right' and 'alright' might be similarly differentiated - so that's all right. Alright?

[Serial_Apologist]

Today, not for the first time, we have the US Secretary of State saying that Israel "must do more to protect civilian lives" in Gaza. But given that Israel has done nothing whatsoever to protect civilian lives in Gaza, in fact quite the reverse, it seems contradictory, if not futile, to urge them to "do more", surely?

[french frank]

Today, not for the first time, we have the US Secretary of State saying that Israel "must do more to protect civilian lives" in Gaza. But given that Israel has done nothing whatsoever to protect civilian lives in Gaza, in fact quite the reverse, it seems contradictory, if not futile, to urge them to "do more", surely?

“Take some more tea," the March Hare said to Alice, very earnestly.
"I've had nothing yet," Alice replied in an offended tone, "so I can't take more."
"You mean you can't take less," said the Hatter: "it's very easy to take more than nothing."

[Serial_Apologist]

“Take some more tea," the March Hare said to Alice, very earnestly.
"I've had nothing yet," Alice replied in an offended tone, "so I can't take more."
"You mean you can't take less," said the Hatter: "it's very easy to take more than nothing."

The man must be blinking useless.

[Serial_Apologist]

Headline in today's Metro newspaper:

Murdered MP's daughter suing police and No.10

Another case of "Good King Charles walked and talked half an hour after his head was cut off".

[kernelbogey]

I notice that some presenters, including the blessed Jonathan, pronounce Richard Strauss's first name as in English usage. As he is German, the 'correct' pronunciation, in my view, is with a soft 'ch' sound (as in shard). I'm posting here, rather than on Pronunciation Watch, because I recognise this as my pedantry. My argument is, partly, that we wouldn't want Elgar to be pronounced as Edvard Elgar, though no doubt that happens. Contrariwise, Petroc this morning pronounced HvK's first name in the German style (Harebert).

[gurnemanz]

I notice that some presenters, including the blessed Jonathan, pronounce Richard Strauss's first name as in English usage. As he is German, the 'correct' pronunciation, in my view, is with a soft 'ch' sound (as in shard). I'm posting here, rather than on Pronunciation Watch, because I recognise this as my pedantry. My argument is, partly, that we wouldn't want Elgar to be pronounced as Edvard Elgar, though no doubt that happens. Contrariwise, Petroc this morning pronounced HvK's first name in the German style (Harebert).

I taught German and devoted much effort over the years to helping students produce an authentic 'ich' sound and am always happy to go on about this subject. The 'ch' sound after front vowels, e, and i and umlauted back vowels, ä, ö, ü is a very light palatal fricative articulated at the front of the mouth - not ish, ick or itch. It's quite tricky to get right and not overdo, which is perhaps why some presenters don't bother. In addition, to get it completely right the final d, as with every final d in German (eg Hund), should be devoiced to a t.

You might argue that if you are going to pronounce Richard as in English it is not rational to pronounce the surname as Germans do, as normally occurs with Richard Wagner (but we don't often hear 'wag', as with a dog's tail).

[oddoneout]

I taught German and devoted much effort over the years to helping students produce an authentic 'ich' sound and am always happy to go on about this subject. The 'ch' sound after front vowels, e, and i and umlauted back vowels, ä, ö, ü is a very light palatal fricative articulated at the front of the mouth - not ish, ick or itch. It's quite tricky to get right and not overdo, which is perhaps why some presenters don't bother. In addition, to get it completely right the final d, as with every final d in German (eg Hund), should be devoiced to a t.

You might argue that if you are going to pronounce Richard as in English it is not rational to pronounce the surname as Germans do, as normally occurs with Richard Wagner (but we don't often hear 'wag', as with a dog's tail).

I was taught German by a German national who demanded that the 'ch' sound was fairly hard, tending almost to the guttural. I seem to remember that a softer version was lumped in with all her other dislikes/ridiculing of Bavarians... As a result I found it difficult when performing German choral music to be required to use an almost 'ish' pronunciation, for similar reasons I assume to the different French pronunciation when singing rather than speaking certain words or sounds. I've been listening to some pronunciations of Richard online, and there is quite a variation, although most tend toward the softer(in some cases sounding almost French) sound. The endings vary between 'art' and something more like 'out'.
Somewhat ironically the version I was taught stood me in good stead when I briefly was learning Dutch, with its throat-clearing 'g's.

[Serial_Apologist]

I was taught German by a German national who demanded that the 'ch' sound was fairly hard, tending almost to the guttural. I seem to remember that a softer version was lumped in with all her other dislikes/ridiculing of Bavarians... As a result I found it difficult when performing German choral music to be required to use an almost 'ish' pronunciation, for similar reasons I assume to the different French pronunciation when singing rather than speaking certain words or sounds. I've been listening to some pronunciations of Richard online, and there is quite a variation, although most tend toward the softer(in some cases sounding almost French) sound. The endings vary between 'art' and something more like 'out'.
Somewhat ironically the version I was taught stood me in good stead when I briefly was learning Dutch, with its throat-clearing 'g's.

Its phlegm-avoidance notification accompanied throat-clearing 'g's.

[french frank]

The 'ch' sound after front vowels, e, and i and umlauted back vowels, ä, ö, ü is a very light palatal fricative articulated at the front of the mouth - not ish, ick or itch.

I think the most useful course which I followed during my residence abroad was the French phonetics. I appreciated the precision