Pedants' Paradise

[french frank]

A Guardian piece about the restoration of Notre Dame in Paris describes the installation of a 'rooster' on the spire, rather than a cockerel. The piece was provided by AP in Paris. Tant pis.

AP probably used Google translate: F>E coq = rooster; E>F cockerel = jeune coq. Hence the Americanism, even when it comes via French.

[gurnemanz]

AP probably used Google translate: F>E coq = rooster; E>F cockerel = jeune coq. Hence the Americanism, even when it comes via French.

Bit of a cock-up ....

[vinteuil]

Bit of a cock-up ....

... which on stud-farms is generally considered a good thing

.

[Pulcinella]

A Guardian piece about the restoration of Notre Dame in Paris describes the installation of a 'rooster' on the spire, rather than a cockerel. The piece was provided by AP in Paris. Tant pis.

I'm not too sure that rooster is quite as bad as you might think:

ROOSTERS, COCKERELS & BIRD WEATHERVANES

https://www.blackcountrymetalworks.co.uk/weathervanes-cast-iron.htm

[kernelbogey]

AP probably used Google translate: F>E coq = rooster; E>F cockerel = jeune coq. Hence the Americanism, even when it comes via French.

I also recognise that American English has now replaced British English as, er, the Lingua Franca.

[french frank]

I'm not too sure that rooster is quite as bad as you might think:

No, I think they just want to sell to America. OED says 'Mainly N. American'. The normal British usage is 'cockerel': "A young male of the domestic chicken, spec. one that is mature but less than one year old. Also more widely (in recent use): a male domestic chicken of any age."

Rooster is "Chiefly North American, Australian, and New Zealand, and formerly English regional."

[kernelbogey]

I'm not too sure that rooster is quite as bad as you might think:
ROOSTERS, COCKERELS & BIRD WEATHERVANES
https://www.blackcountrymetalworks.c...-cast-iron.htm

Their explanation of 'rooster weathervanes' appears to use rooster and cockerel interchangeably (though I think quoting one of the American translations of the New Testament):

Following one of Bible history’s most iconic events, the Last Supper, it was predicted that St. Peter, one of Jesus’ disciples, would denounce him three times “before the rooster crowed” the following morning. It was through this that the humble rooster became known as the symbol of St. Peter to Christians all across the globe. However, it wasn’t until around 600 A.D that Pope Gregory I declared that the rooster, with its symbolism of Christ’s passion, was the most suitable emblem for Christianity. As such, the first cockerels began to appear on top of weathervanes, later being fitted to the top of every Christian church steeple.

[Pulcinella]

Their explanation of 'rooster weathervanes' appears to use rooster and cockerel interchangeably (though I think quoting one of the American translations of the New Testament):

Following one of Bible history’s most iconic events, the Last Supper, it was predicted that St. Peter, one of Jesus’ disciples, would denounce him three times “before the rooster crowed” the following morning. It was through this that the humble rooster became known as the symbol of St. Peter to Christians all across the globe. However, it wasn’t until around 600 A.D that Pope Gregory I declared that the rooster, with its symbolism of Christ’s passion, was the most suitable emblem for Christianity. As such, the first cockerels began to appear on top of weathervanes, later being fitted to the top of every Christian church steeple.

Rooster or cockerel (yes: it looks like the US market is in mind and it's their usage), I wasn't aware of any religious significance before reading this.
I just thought that it was a suitable shape to have as a weather vane.

[french frank]

The Labour MP said both her and her daughter were doing well...

Is this how we're all supposed to speak now or is it just standard BBC-speak? Or is it an indirect version of: "Both me and my baby are doing well"? Anyway to the infant.

[Padraig]

The Labour MP said both her and her daughter were doing well...

Is this how we're all supposed to speak now or is it just standard BBC-speak? Or is it an indirect version of: "Both me and my baby are doing well"? Anyway to the infant.

There is a lot to unpack there, f f: three questions; direct and indirect speech; a comment on the BBC. There is also the view of usage determining acceptance, the potential awkwardness of using 'both' in this instance, and the possibility that some sensitive soul will take exception to a reference to a political Party. However I have no hesitation in raising a glass to the Christmas baby girl and her mother.

[smittims]

I wonder also if there is a taboo about the word 'she' ('both she and her daughter...). I remember many years ago being upbraided for using the word to refer to a woman. It seems in some circles it is still awkward.

[french frank]

On this topic (eg 'Me and her went to the cinema') I'm just reading the chapter 'Tendencies and Trends' which Potter wrote in 1950 (Our Language):

"Ye and You have been levelled out in everyday speech, but the distinction between subjective I and objective me, he and him, she and her, they and them are well maintained in standard speech although these formal distinctions are no more necessary in pronouns than in nouns. If one form of a noun can now serve as either subject or object according to its place in the sentence pattern, in the same way one pronoun might be used for both functions. But all the pronominal forms are monosyllabic, they are in frequent use, and they can bear the main stress. They have therefore resisted the levelling process." [Until now!]

[gurnemanz]

On this topic (eg 'Me and her went to the cinema')

I am generally of the pedantic persuasion and not slow to denigrate lazy or ignorant usage, but I would not swear that I have never in my life uttered a sentence that used a phrase like 'me and my wife' as the subject of a sentence. Such substandard or ungrammatical usage like can be perilously infectious and it can catch you unawares when just rambling on in an informal context. I would certainly not write it or say it while actively paying attention to what was coming out of my mouth

[french frank]

I would certainly not write it or say it while actively paying attention to what was coming out of my mouth

You old stick-in-the-mud!

At the risk of boring people further with another very percipient comment by Simeon Potter (who as far as I can see has a stub article in the Italian Wikipedia but nothing in the British) 75 years ago:

"It might be argued, for example that English would be improved as a medium of communication by the simple adoption of a common or epicene pronoun in the singular number that might refer definitely to male or female. Such a phrase as ‘Everyone to their liking’ is clearly usatisfactory. It deserves to be branded as a solecism, and yet it it answers a real need in that it shows beyond doubt that women are also included in this observation. Historically masculine and feminine genders are grammatical categories not totally identifiable with male and female sex. By age-long convention ‘he’ includes ‘she’, but ‘Everyone to his liking’ is no longer felt to include females in its denotation, and ‘Everyone to his or her liking’ is cumbersome.”

Obviously, it was even 'simpler' to use they and them than to invent a new form; but it's taken its time.

[smittims]

I've returned to using he and his as common-gender pronouns, maybe subconsciously as a protest against the flood-tide of excessive feminism, but because I think grammar should be above political correctnesss. To me, 'postman', ' signalman' , and 'chairman' do not imply that the person is male , as the nouns are common gender. Watching a repeat of The Ascent of Man recently I noticed that Jacob Bronowski habitually refers to man as meaning 'humanity' (it's admittedly some time before he first mentions 'woman').

To claim that 'man' always means exclusively male seems to me to reflect lack of education, as did the demand that the Royal Standard be flown at half-mast when Princes Diana died, or the modern practice of flying the Union Flag all day (and night) on any day in the year. I know many think this stance pedantry, but I think a lot of trouble would be avoided with a little more education.