Pedants' Paradise

[vinteuil]

It's a very moot point. I would have thought it's subjunctive, with "let" or "may" understood, in which case "God" would be nominative, not vocative.

I tend to agree. Along the lines of "God speed!", "God help us!".

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It's a very moot point. I would have thought it's subjunctive, with "let" or "may" understood, in which case "God" would be nominative, not vocative.

Hey, come now; there are some who say that if the composer didn't write it that way, the performer shouldn't play it that way.

[Pabmusic]

It's a very moot point. I would have thought it's subjunctive, with "let" or "may" understood, in which case "God" would be nominative, not vocative.

I wouldn't say it's a moot point at all. It's clearly subjunctive - we used the subjunctive much more often in the 18th Century than we do now and the construction would have been very familiar. We still have many formulaic subjunctives that are really idioms (because they seem just a little odd, but we use them nonetheless) such as: be that as it may; far be it from me; if it please the court; if need be; truth be told; God bless you; come what may; God forbid!; perish the thought; suffice it to say, and ... God save the Queen.

[Panjandrum]

Very good (though it clearly isn't a subjunctively constructed sentence). However, the case is still vocative.

I know the Brits have always seen themselves as God's chosen people, but surely it was going it a bit to assume that they would start issuing orders to the Almighty.

To clarify, no less an authority than the OED cites examples of '[God] send (a person) safe, victorious, etc.' meaning 'God grant that he may be safe, etc. QED.

[mangerton]

I know the Brits have always seen themselves as God's chosen people, but surely it was going it a bit to assume that they would start issuing orders to the Almighty.

Oh, I don't know. The Lord's prayer (ordained by God's son) is full of imperatives.

[mangerton]

Hey, come now; there are some who say that if the composer didn't write it that way, the performer shouldn't play it that way.

I'm not sure how you would play something in a subjunctive mood. The only musical mood I can think of offhand is "Indigo".

Could one devise a parallel between major/minor and indicative/subjunctive? If so, where would infinitive and imperative fit in?

[jean]

I would have thought it's subjunctive, with "let" or "may" understood, in which case "God" would be nominative, not vocative.

It's the sort of subjunctive commonly called jussive. The 'let' or 'may' versions are periphrastic alternatives, and then the 'save' is an infinitive. But without the modals it's a plain unvarnished subjunctive - which we used to have at outr disposal, but rarely use now.

And it's third person, so God is nominative.

[Panjandrum]

Oh, I don't know. The Lord's prayer (ordained by God's son) is full of imperatives.

More of a quid pro quo though: thy will be done; as long as thou dost not lead us into temptation.

[jean]

The Lord's Prayer starts with a string of subjunctives:

....hallowed be thy name;
thy kingdom come;
thy will be done,
in earth as it is in heaven...

Only then does it start telling God what to do.

[mangerton]

It's the sort of subjunctive commonly called jussive. The 'let' or 'may' versions are periphrastic alternatives, and then the 'save' is an infinitive. But without the modals it's a plain unvarnished subjunctive - which we used to have at outr disposal, but rarely use now.

And it's third person, so God is nominative.

Thank you, jean, "jussive" definitely rings a bell.

[amateur51]

It's the sort of subjunctive commonly called jussive. The 'let' or 'may' versions are periphrastic alternatives, and then the 'save' is an infinitive. But without the modals it's a plain unvarnished subjunctive - which we used to have at outr disposal, but rarely use now.

And it's third person, so God is nominative.

God is a person?

Pur-leaze!

[gurnemanz]

God is a person?

Pur-leaze!

The subjunctive as a verb form rather than with a modal like "may" or "let" can only be used in the 3rd person singular because only there is it distinctive from the indicative (save/saves). If we had multiple gods like the Greeks or Romans, it wouldn't work. "Gods save the Queen" is ambiguous, being either subjunctive (may they do it) or indicative (they do it). A polytheistic national anthem would have to start "May gods save the Queen" which doesn't scan.

[amateur51]

The subjunctive as a verb form rather than with a modal like "may" or "let" can only be used in the 3rd person singular because only there is it distinctive from the indicative (save/saves). If we had multiple gods like the Greeks or Romans, it wouldn't work. "Gods save the Queen" is ambiguous, being either subjunctive (may they do it) or indicative (they do it). A polytheistic national anthem would have to start "May gods save the Queen" which doesn't scan.

What about "Ye Gods Save the Queen"?

[Flosshilde]

A polytheistic national anthem would have to start "May gods save the Queen" which doesn't scan.

& it also has the suggestion that they may save the queen, but they might not. Which given how capricious the Greek & Roman gods were is highly likely.

(it also seems to suggest that we are giving the gods permission to save the queen)

[handsomefortune]

God is nominative.

it does sound unusually pro active!

nevertheless, i've nominate my gods, and given them permission to crown jean 'queen of written & spoken words'.