Pedants' Paradise

[gradus]

There's a kick-off but does there have to be a score-line.

[Padraig]

I have noticed an increase in the number of times I have heard the word 'huge' mispronounced, though I would not say a shuge number.

[Bryn]

"There are no results that meet this criteria."

Error message in response to a search failure on this very forum.

[kernelbogey]

"There are no results that meet this criteria."

Error message in response to a search failure on this very forum.

Ain't no such critters.

[french frank]

"There are no results that meet this criteria."

Error message in response to a search failure on this very forum.

The company software we used would come up with: One errors.

Meanwhile, back to the BBC website's gradual americanisation: "Farmer Llŷr Jones said his sheepdog Patsy dove into flooded fields to rescue part of his flock."

Reference sources suggest 'dove' is most usual in N. America, 'dived' elsewhere. On the odd occasion when I've heard 'dove' I imagined it was being used jocularly.

[smittims]

And of course dove often crops up in opera libretti. 'Dove Son! Crudele , ma dove?'

[Bryn]

The company software we used would come up with: One errors.

Meanwhile, back to the BBC website's gradual americanisation: "Farmer Llŷr Jones said his sheepdog Patsy dove into flooded fields to rescue part of his flock."

Reference sources suggest 'dove' is most usual in N. America, 'dived' elsewhere. On the odd occasion when I've heard 'dove' I imagined it was being used jocularly.

A somewhat fuller (more fuil ) story of the evolution: https://www.merriam-webster.com/gram...ich-is-correct

[french frank]

A somewhat fuller (more fuil ) story of the evolution: https://www.merriam-webster.com/gram...ich-is-correct

Yes, I'd been mentally going through the alphabet for analogies (bive, cive, dive, five, give, hive &c) and concluded that the similarity with drive had been the driver of change. Strive/strove seems to have had a longer, probably precisely etymological, history. I hesitated (and still do) between thrived and throve ... no, I think I would say thrived.

That said, I would have expected irregular forms to be come regular, not vice versa: drive, drived; dive, dived. Language is soooo arbitrary. So of course every usage is 'right' but some give rise to misunderstandings, some don't.

[Bryn]

Yes, I'd been mentally going through the alphabet for analogies (bive, cive, dive, five, give, hive &c) and concluded that the similarity with drive had been the driver of change. Strive/strove seems to have had a longer, probably precisely etymological, history. I hesitated (and still do) between thrived and throve ... no, I think I would say thrived.

That said, I would have expected irregular forms to be come regular, not vice versa: drive, drived; dive, dived. Language is soooo arbitrary. So of course every usage is 'right' but some give rise to misunderstandings, some don't.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...nglish/thriven

[french frank]

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...nglish/thriven

Yes, thriven is the past participle, like drive - drove - driven. Thrive - throve/thrived - thriven (also strive). Dived - dived/dove - ?? diven?? So 'to dive' is not like 'to drive' but the grammatical difference is lost on most people in matters of everyday usage. It's the first thing that comes into one's head.

[vinteuil]

That said, I would have expected irregular forms to be come regular, not vice versa: drive, drived; dive, dived. Language is soooo arbitrary. So of course every usage is 'right' but some give rise to misunderstandings, some don't.

And many think that 'wrought' is a past tense of 'wreak' - whereas the past of wreak is wreaked : wrought the past of work. But also see -

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/wrought#:~:text=As%20a%20verb%2C%20wrought%20is,even%20here%2C%20wrought%20is%20etymologically

... I still enjoy using inappropriate strong forms of English verbs - 'an avenue of plaught lime trees', 'he raught out to me in my time of need', 'a pair of blaught linen trousers' &c

.

[gurnemanz]

Yes, I'd been mentally going through the alphabet for analogies (bive, cive, dive, five, give, hive &c) and concluded that the similarity with drive had been the driver of change. Strive/strove seems to have had a longer, probably precisely etymological, history. I hesitated (and still do) between thrived and throve ... no, I think I would say thrived.

That said, I would have expected irregular forms to be come regular, not vice versa: drive, drived; dive, dived. Language is soooo arbitrary. So of course every usage is 'right' but some give rise to misunderstandings, some don't.

You started me off comparing - ive verbs with German cognates, which end in -eben. I think they were all originally irregular and have generally been in transition towards regularity over the centuries. This transition varies between English and German is still going on with options still available in some cases as with dived/dove.

strive - irreg or reg (strived/strove)
streben - now only reg

give - only irreg
geben - only irreg

German -eben verbs sometimes come to be spelt (spelled?) -eave in English:

heave - irreg or reg,heaved/hove https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/heave
heben (to lift) only irreg (hob)

weave - mainly irreg wove. weaved?
weben - irreg or reg (wob/webte)

cleave - very mixed up (clove, cleft, cleaved https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cleave)
kleben - only reg (klebte)

It seems that the more common a verb is in everyday use the more likely it is to retain the irregular form (give/geben being a case in point).

[Bryn]

And many think that 'wrought' is a past tense of 'wreak' - whereas the past of wreak is wreaked : wrought the past of work. But also see -

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/wrought#:~:text=As%20a%20verb%2C%20wrought%20is,ev en%20here%2C%20wrought%20is%20etymologically

... I still enjoy using inappropriate strong forms of English verbs - 'an avenue of plaught lime trees', 'he raught out to me in my time of need', 'a pair of blaught linen trousers' &c

.

wrought | American Dictionary




wrought

us
/rɔt/

wrought (CAUSED)

. . .

past simple and past participle of wreak

from https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...nglish/wrought

[french frank]

You started me off comparing - ive verbs with German cognates, which end in -eben. I think they were all originally irregular and have generally been in transition towards regularity over the centuries.

Interesting. I knew most of our irregular verbs were the Germans' fault! Well, seriously, it is fascinating to see how irregularities arise in one language in the first place and how they regularise. The Romans often got things wrong too! And the French!

[vinteuil]

from https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...nglish/wrought

... well how wrong they are! (Well, it's the East Anglia Polytechnic, innit - whatchew especk?)