Pedants' Paradise

[smittims]

I was sorry to see the Times confuse grammar with punctuation, in their first paragraph.


But what an 'own goal' for this politician. She will be remembered for this rather than for any good intentions she may have.

[Bryn]

I was sorry to see the Times confuse grammar with punctuation, in their first paragraph.


But what an 'own goal' for this politician. She will be remembered for this rather than for any good intentions she may have.

Given her voting history, I wonder whether she has many in the way of "good intentions".

[Pulcinella]

I was sorry to see the Times confuse grammar with punctuation, in their first paragraph.


But what an 'own goal' for this politician. She will be remembered for this rather than for any good intentions she may have.

[smittims]

I looked for the term 'Oxford comma' in my Oxford English Dictionary ( original, and 1980s supplement) and in other reference books without finding it. How old is the term?

I did find this, though, from Sir Ernest Gowers' 'Plain Words', long considered the guide to good Civil Service writing:

' The use of commas cannot be learned by rule... correct use... can only be acquired by common sense, observation and taste.'

[french frank]

' The use of commas cannot be learned by rule... correct use... can only be acquired by common sense, observation and taste.'

I don't agree with everything Gowers wrote back in 1066, but I think that serves as a rule of thumb. The comma implies a slight pause: if you think that is needed for clarity, emphasis or naturalness of rhythm/sense in what you are writing, use a comma. Sometimes it just, seems like a nonsense. If no pause is needed, why use a comma?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/sep/16/therese-coffey-oxford-comma-health-secretary-grammar

By their language directive shall you know them.

[kernelbogey]

I don't agree with everything Gowers wrote back in 1066, but I think that serves as a rule of thumb.

The comma implies a slight pause: if you think that is needed for clarity, emphasis or naturalness of rhythm/sense in what you are writing, use a comma. Sometimes it just, seems like a nonsense. If no pause is needed, why use a comma...?

I read somewhere that reading aloud what you have written is a good test of prose; and that argument supports that.

And BTW, I think the semi-colon is underused.

[Pulcinella]

I read somewhere that reading aloud what you have written is a good test of prose; and that argument supports that.

And BTW, I think the semi-colon is underused.

Indeed.
Maybe there should be a purge on the comma splice (as I think it's called) rather than on the Oxford comma (could Coffey be confused?).

I hate seeing such abominations as
We are very busy, however we'll attend to you as soon as possible.
Or even
We are very busy, however, we'll attend to you as soon as possible.

I like colons and semicolons, and I use them a lot.

[EnemyoftheStoat]

Indeed.
Maybe there should be a purge on the comma splice (as I think it's called) rather than on the Oxford comma (could Coffey be confused?).

I hate seeing such abominations as
We are very busy, however we'll attend to you as soon as possible.
Or even
We are very busy, however, we'll attend to you as soon as possible.

I like colons and semicolons, and I use them a lot.

Abominations is the word.

[smittims]

I'd say 'We are very busy but we'll attend to you as soon as possible'.

[cat]

I'd say 'We are very busy but we'll attend to you as soon as possible'.

I love commas, in fact, I delight in slightly excessive comma use, as I find it aids reading aloud, not that most written words are intended to be read aloud, but I feel they ought to be prepared for such anyway.

"We are very busy, but will, however, attend to you as soon as possible". The "however" serves the purpose of emphasising that every effort is being made towards prompt attendance despite the busyness.

[oddoneout]

Indeed.
Maybe there should be a purge on the comma splice (as I think it's called) rather than on the Oxford comma (could Coffey be confused?).

I hate seeing such abominations as
We are very busy, however we'll attend to you as soon as possible.
Or even
We are very busy, however, we'll attend to you as soon as possible.

I like colons and semicolons, and I use them a lot.

In some respects the punctuation of both versions is irrelevant since these days "We are very busy" just means "go away", and the second part suggesting someone might attend to you is more often than not a fiction.

[french frank]

And BTW, I think the semi-colon is underused.

Yes, I think there was an argument for a semicolon, rather than a colon, when I wrote, "The comma implies a slight pause: if you think that is needed for clarity, emphasis or naturalness of rhythm/sense in what you are writing, use a comma."

It depends how you see or intend the relationship between the two clauses to be understood.

[kernelbogey]

In reports by both BBC and C4 journalists yesterday I heard 'referendums' and 'referenda' spoken in the same piece.

[Maclintick]

In reports by both BBC and C4 journalists yesterday I heard 'referendums' and 'referenda' spoken in the same piece.

I remember the late Brian Redhead, doyen of demotic Northern blokeyness, arguing 40-odd years ago on R4 that "referendums" would be a more comprehensible term for journalists to use & more readily understood by the general public than the grammatically-correct "referenda". So it goes...

[Bryn]

I remember the late Brian Redhead, doyen of demotic Northern blokeyness, arguing 40-odd years ago on R4 that "referendums" would be a more comprehensible term for journalists to use & more readily understood by the general public than the grammatically-correct "referenda". So it goes...

But referenda are rather different to referendums. The Latin plural does not relate to the modern use of referendum as a plebiscite. See https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...FE0056A1D4C78E