Pedants' Paradise

[ahinton]

I suspect this is of World War One vintage. John Betjeman always said an 'otel and enjoyed playing goff.

At the risk of momentary digression, do you suppose that the absurdly affected "Rafe" as the forename of Vaughan Williams might have had similar origins?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Sounds like Hhhancock's hhhalf-hour...

Yes, that WAS what I meant.

Fort so.

The first time I ever encountered the possibility of "an hotel" being "correct" English was when I was being prepared for the Eleven-plus, and we were set "put the correct 'a' of 'an' before these words"-type exercise. I was outraged to have my "a hotel" marked as "wrong" - as was everybody else in the class, except the one lad who'd got it "right". His parents owned a hotel.

(I was similarly incredulous four years later when I was told that "bade" should be pronounced "bad" and not "baid".)

"An hhotel" is just wrong - people who have heard that it should be "an" but who have also been taught that it is "common" to drop their haitches.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

At the risk of momentary digression, do you suppose that the absurdly affected "Rafe" as the forename of Vaughan Williams might have had similar origins?

No - it must be earlier than that - WS Gilbert pronounced his HMS Pinafore character's name as "Rafe Rackstraw".

[ahinton]

No - it must be earlier than that - WS Gilbert pronounced his HMS Pinafore character's name as "Rafe Rackstraw".

Yes, but I was referring specifically to the adoption of that pronunciation in place of "Ralph" in Dr Vaughan Williams' name!

[vinteuil]

.

... innarestin' time chart for use of "a / an historic" in US and British English -

http://www.betterwritingskills.com/tip-w005.html

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Yes, but I was referring specifically to the adoption of that pronunciation in place of "Ralph" in Dr Vaughan Williams' name!

I thought that that was how he pronounced it himself? If not, why do you think that the change of pronunciation originated in the First World War? (He was around for another forty years to prevent it if there had been a change at that time.)

[ahinton]

I thought that that was how he pronounced it himself?

I didn't know that! although, if so, I still have no idea why!

If not, why do you think that the change of pronunciation originated in the First World War?

I didn't and don't think it; I merely wondered about it.

He was around for another forty years to prevent it if there had been a change at that time.

Perhaps he just didn't care!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafe_(given_name)

but also the plot thickens at

http://www-bcf.usc.edu/~wedgwood/framesetpronunciation.html

http://virtuallinguist.typepad.com/the_virtual_linguist/2009/03/the-pronunciation-of-ralph.html

https://www.englishforums.com/English/WhenAndWhyRafe/hqkrn/post.htm

The issue now seems to be the English habit of spelling certain names one way and pronouncing them another, as in Cholmondeley and Featherstonehaugh, not to mention that non-English people who have not actually heard the name of another English composer pronounced might reasonably be excused for having no no idea how properly to say it given the number of possible alternatives!...

[Bryn]

This might help.

[Serial_Apologist]

This might help.

I guess Ralph Fiennes is just fine with that.

[gurnemanz]

Another member of the Fiennes tribe is of the course the strikingly named Ranulph Twisleton-Wykeham-Fiennes. Ranulph seems to have a different origin.

Random observations: My German father-in-law was Ralph, whereas the name is mostly spelt Ralf in German, eg Ralf Schuhmacher, younger brother of Michael. Their father is called Rolf.

Rolf and Ralf etc all seems to be variants of Rudolph. Also related to Raoul/Raul in the Romance languages where it has shortened itself by losing both the "d" and the "f".

[Lat-Literal]

I didn't know that! although, if so, I still have no idea why!


I didn't and don't think it; I merely wondered about it.


Perhaps he just didn't care!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafe_(given_name)

but also the plot thickens at

http://www-bcf.usc.edu/~wedgwood/framesetpronunciation.html

http://virtuallinguist.typepad.com/the_virtual_linguist/2009/03/the-pronunciation-of-ralph.html

https://www.englishforums.com/English/WhenAndWhyRafe/hqkrn/post.htm

The issue now seems to be the English habit of spelling certain names one way and pronouncing them another, as in Cholmondeley and Featherstonehaugh, not to mention that non-English people who have not actually heard the name of another English composer pronounced might reasonably be excused for having no no idea how properly to say it given the number of possible alternatives!...

I believe I have mentioned before that a senior school friend's late father was named Ralph (Richard) Ralph.

He pronounced his Christian name "Rafe".

[ahinton]

This might help.

I'd just linked to it above in #3277!

[french frank]

I'd just linked to it above in #3277!

Pedant!

[Padraig]

Pedant!

Re 'an hotel' etc.

By coincidence I read just now:

'I was yesterday invited by a gentleman to dinner, who promised that our entertainment should consist of an haunch of venison, a turtle, and a great man.'

Oliver Goldsmith

[P. G. Tipps]

I always say 'an hotel' ... it makes good, logical linguistic sense even if 'propah' English often doesn't?

It is certainly preferable to that wretched alternative, an horridly Americanised 'ay' ?.