Pedants' Paradise

[french frank]

Hi, ff, with respect:

I didn't know Greece was an ally ! They've been pretty nasty to us for years.

They've been members of NATO since 1952!

Sneering and then affecting to admire is hypocrisy. People laugh at Britain for being weak, a soft touch. Its time we asserted our rights.

Not what I was saying, though. I doubt that there's much evidence (perhaps in the Daily Express?) that the same people who want to settle here are also those who sneer at Britain. There may well be some individuals who do just that. Somewhere ... I find no statistics on that.

Those who can afford, and who can stand the awful climate (48 degrees C?), not to mentio nthe smell, can visit Athens, Not I , not milions of Brits who have the right to see them in the BM now. The last I heard, they belong to the BM who aren't allowed to give them away . That really should be the end of it.

When were you last there? Temperature in Athens at the moment is 14C. I've only been there twice, and in high summer it was hot. I didn't notice the smell. The question of 'giving them away' is not - as I understand - the issue under discussion by the Museum: it's about a loan in exchange for other Greek artefacts.

And Greece, including Athens, is a popular destination for UK tourists, so it takes all sorts!

[Master Jacques]

Bit cynical there, MJ ? It would also make space to exhibit stuff that has never before been on display. But the caffs in these places are a bit pricey, unnecessarily so in my view, and for my stingy tastes.

Even if they don't utilise that space directly for a new café, the BM is going the same way as the V&A in dedicating less space to exhibits, razzing up fewer exhibits in the space they're allotted, and opening extra food and drink outlets "by public demand". The people would rather sit down in swanky cafes than gawp at bronze-age odds and sods. (And pricey these caffs certainly are!)

[french frank]

You're all missing the point. By handing them back to Greece, where they won't be in situ (too polluted) but stuck in a very similar hole to the one they're in now, the British Museum makes space for yet another money-making café, from which to serve quiche to tourists.

Bit cynical there, MJ ? It would also make space to exhibit stuff that has never before been on display. But the caffs in these places are a bit pricey, unnecessarily so in my view, and for my stingy tastes.

[smittims]

Hi, ff, with respect:

I didn't know Greece was an ally ! They've been pretty nasty to us for years.

Sneering and then affecting to admire is hypocrisy. People laugh at Britain for being weak, a soft touch. Its time we asserted our rights.

Those who can afford, and who can stand the awful climate (48 degrees C?), not to mentio nthe smell, can visit Athens, Not I , not milions of Brits who have the right to see them in the BM now. The last I heard, they belong to the BM who aren't allowed to give them away . That really should be the end of it.

[Master Jacques]

You're all missing the point. By handing them back to Greece, where they won't be in situ (too polluted) but stuck in a very similar hole to the one they're in now, the British Museum makes space for yet another money-making café, from which to serve quiche to tourists.

[french frank]

IIf we give in,there's no knowing where it will end.

In a post-war era (at least for us), talking of 'giving in' to an ally sounds a little belligerent perhaps?

Already there are too many people sneering at Britain, though paradioxically, ,millions of people it seems want to come and live here.

Two unconnected factors. Some people may well sneer at me for one reason and other (or the same) people admire me for another reason. That's wouldn't be a paradox: it may well be perfectly logical.

I think we need to be aware that what we do now may be comdemned by future generations. It's wrong to give away what we ought to hand on to them.

Should we have given away parts of the British Empire because those parts wanted their independence from Britain? Times and attitudes change. We shouldn't change the status quo on anything, perhaps, because future generations may (possibly) condemn us for doing so? Or they may wonder why it took us so long to do the 'right thing'. British people will still be able to visit and admire the sculptures. My guess is that the minority of British people who would be interested in seeing them would also be willing to pay a visit to Greece and see other works of art.

[smittims]

I don't think there's any point in arguing about who originally owned them . Didn't someone once say Property is theft? You just get bogged down in futile qubbling aboiut the fact that the Greeks didn't care about them and blew up the building when the Turks occupied it, and left the sculptures lying about .

If you go back far enough we could all claim compensation from the government of Normandy for what happened in 1066. But if you want my view, Elgin bought them. And he wasn't properly reimbursed by the British Goverment for the expense he went to to get them here.

I thint the urge to send them back is 'presentism' , a fashionable fad to be seen to be politically-correct. I think we need to be more mature than that.

[Pulcinella]

I thought we'd agreed that referenda weren't a good idea. Both the decision to leave the EU and the decision to declare war on Germany on 4 August 1914 (both disastrous in my opinion) had considerable popular support.

I've often found that in major questions there are those who say 'Its simple: you do this, this, this. End of job. Done'. And there are those who say 'wait a minute; it's not as simple as you think. Let's consider the long-term ramifications.'

If all works of art were returned to their country of origin it would be a petty, small-minded world. If one could hear Beethoven only in Germany or Vienna, if one could see Monet only in France; and where would this leave Australia, or Portugal? This way of thinking diminishes art and a broader view of the world. I think it's more 'grown-up' to accept that British paintings can be in Chicago or Sydney , and that the Elgin Marbles belong to the British Museum and there's no good reason for changing that.

If we give in,there's no knowing where it will end. Already there are too many people sneering at Britain, though paradioxically, ,millions of people it seems want to come and live here. I think we need to be aware that what we do now may be comdemned by future generations. It's wrong to give away what we ought to hand on to them.

But did they belong to Elgin in the first place, is the question, surely? Or did he steal them?

[smittims]

I thought we'd agreed that referenda weren't a good idea. Both the decision to leave the EU and the decision to declare war on Germany on 4 August 1914 (both disastrous in my opinion) had considerable popular support.

I've often found that in major questions there are those who say 'Its simple: you do this, this, this. End of job. Done'. And there are those who say 'wait a minute; it's not as simple as you think. Let's consider the long-term ramifications.'

If all works of art were returned to their country of origin it would be a petty, small-minded world. If one could hear Beethoven only in Germany or Vienna, if one could see Monet only in France; and where would this leave Australia, or Portugal? This way of thinking diminishes art and a broader view of the world. I think it's more 'grown-up' to accept that British paintings can be in Chicago or Sydney , and that the Elgin Marbles belong to the British Museum and there's no good reason for changing that.

If we give in,there's no knowing where it will end. Already there are too many people sneering at Britain, though paradioxically, ,millions of people it seems want to come and live here. I think we need to be aware that what we do now may be comdemned by future generations. It's wrong to give away what we ought to hand on to them.

[vinteuil]

Your Rival Queens HH suggestion?

... ah, with 53% of the British fighting on the Greek side! (including Byron, no doubt)

.

[french frank]

... my # 6899 of 14:35 today had the yougov poll of 2 December 2024 : those who think the marbles shd be returned to Greece now stand at 53%

Apologies I missed the fact that your link was also to a YouGov poll. My personal opinion is that the sculptures are Greek (in the same way as Stonehenge is British), so it is very understandable that the Greeks should want them brought 'home'. It's less understandable to me why we should even wish to keep them.

[AuntDaisy]

... my # 6899 of 14:35 today had the yougov poll of 2 December 2024 : those who think the marbles shd be returned to Greece now stand at 53%

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/entertai.../12/02/919af/2.

Your Rival Queens HH suggestion?

[vinteuil]

We are all entitled to our opinions. Interestingly, this time last year there was a YouGov poll:

Give them back to Greece 49%.
Keep them in Britain 15%.
Not bothered either way (good ol' Britain) 26%.
Dunno 10%.

... my # 6899 of 14:35 today had the yougov poll of 2 December 2024 : those who think the marbles shd be returned to Greece now stand at 53%

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/entertainment/survey-results/daily/2024/12/02/919af/2

.

[Sir Velo]

The BBC news site also said that No.10 have denied that the subject was even on the agenda. I hope it wasn't. If we give them away we'll never get them back . I think the whole idea should be treated with utter contempt.

So if when the Roman hordes back in 43CE had made off with Stonehenge (or bits of it) you'd have been happy for it/them to remain on display in the Museo Archeologico Nazionale?

[french frank]

I think the whole idea should be treated with utter contempt.

We are all entitled to our opinions. Interestingly, this time last year there was a YouGov poll:

Give them back to Greece 49%.
Keep them in Britain 15%.
Not bothered either way (good ol' Britain) 26%.
Dunno 10%.

Other YouGov polls tell a similar story.

To be fair, the Daily Express has a new poll in light of the recent news. By a resounding majority Daily Express readers (?) - and me: I participated so that you don't have to - think we should not return them. I rest my case. Here one stands: one can do no other