Pedants' Paradise

[jean]

That's exactly what expletive means, of course - Latin explēre, to fill out.

[gurnemanz]

... I think Owen Sheers is also a Welsh speaker. Could any of our Welsh-speaking forumistas advise whether this by any chance reflects a Welsh turn of phrase?

If he's a poet and a Welshman he can probably get away with anything

[LeMartinPecheur]

Quite agree. 'Himself' qualifies 'he' and is there for emphasis, to reinforce 'he', so it would be better next to 'he'.

Quite disagree pabs! Isn't the main point of 'He had himself...' that it permits a big emphatic stress on 'himself' that isn't achieved so well the other way about? In the original quotation it points up the rather unusual 'fact' that the murderer had himself been murdered.

Ooops, there we go again... Not sure whether that's QED or 'begging the question'

[jean]

In the original quotation it points up the rather unusual 'fact' that the murderer had himself been murdered.

That does make clear the superiority of the original version.

('Himself' doesn't qualify 'he' exactly, it's in apposition to it.)

[french frank]

Quite disagree pabs! Isn't the main point of 'He had himself...' that it permits a big emphatic stress on 'himself' that isn't achieved so well the other way about? In the original quotation it points up the rather unusual 'fact' that the murderer had himself been murdered.

The question there is whether the word order alone strengthens the emphasis.

And to an earlier comment: I don't think anyone has gone as far to suggest that the other usage was 'wrong', merely that it sounds awkward to many people, if not everyone. I'm still happy to accept that Welsh/Irish usage may be reflected in it.

[jean]

...I don't think anyone has gone as far to suggest that the other usage was 'wrong'...

That does seem to be the implication if you say a word can't be used in a particular way.

[french frank]

That does seem to be the implication if you say a word can't be used in a particular way.

The 'thread' of the thread has become a bit involved, but the only use of 'can't' that I find also began: "The original quote is OK".

Which brings us to what 'usage' means. In the standard dictionary sense it implies 'how the word/term is currently used' - not 'how it was used by Mr Smith of Acacia Avenue in his State of the Nation speech, 1972'. The OED traces usage back to the beginnings of the language, where examples may suggest a) that there are no examples of the current (say, post-war) usage or b) usage by those either speaking or being influenced by another language. People are then justified in finding that usage 'non standard' - not necessarily 'wrong': one doesn't speak of Shakespeare as having used the language 'wrongly' because a usage has fallen into desuetude. Even the OED allows itself to remark that some usages are 'non standard' or obsolete.

Mr Sheers's quote is interesting since he says he is 'not a fluent speaker' of Welsh (and not, therefore 'a native speaker' in the way it is usually understood), but he may well be influenced by the language of people who are. (I have a feeling that 'Look you' is an approximation of the verbal 'Edrychwch' meaning 'You see' - but am not sure).

Whereas one may quibble over the use of the word 'can't' in language (since clearly anyone CAN say what they wish), it was here used of such constructions as 'My colleague and myself will attend the meeting' which does seem to be explicable as the uncertainty over which form to use:'My colleague and I/me.' As I said in an earlier post, younger speakers know no such uncertainty and opt for 'Me and my colleague' which to older ears may grate: but that is usage.

[jean]

The 'thread' of the thread has become a bit involved, but the only use of 'can't' that I find also began: "The original quote is OK".

Yes, but it's the 'other usage' we moved on to, and that's the one that (according to the poster) 'can't' be used.

Which brings us to what 'usage' means. In the standard dictionary sense it implies 'how the word/term is currently used' - not 'how it was used by Mr Smith of Acacia Avenue in his State of the Nation speech, 1972'.

Such authorities are rarely cited by the OED, and certainly weren't among those I posted.

The OED traces usage back to the beginnings of the language, where examples may suggest a) that there are no examples of the current (say, post-war) usage or b) usage by those either speaking or being influenced by another language.

But you do seem to find b) more respectable somehow than a), though the 'current' examples so disliked here seem to me to be very similar to pre-war ones, so I wouldn't think of them as completely new or 'non standard'.

Even the OED allows itself to remark that some usages are 'non standard' or obsolete.

But not this one I think.

...'My colleague and myself will attend the meeting'... does seem to be explicable as the uncertainty over which form to use:'My colleague and I/me.'

And we feel superior to people who feel such uncertainty because we know, and they don't?

[jean]

...(I have a feeling that 'Look you' is an approximation of the verbal 'Edrychwch' meaning 'You see' - but am not sure)...

It must be an approximation to something, because Shakespeare makes Fluellen say it all the time.

I wonder if it was something in sixteenth-century Welsh, which is now obsolete?

Must ask the Welsh-speaking relatives - I'm seeing them this week.

[french frank]

And we feel superior to people who feel such uncertainty because we know, and they don't?

I'll just answer that point as I haven't time for all the others. No, 'we' don't feel superior. This is Pedants' Paradise. It's supposed to be light-hearted and at least one of my comments to which you responded was clear (I thought) irony: not to be taken seriously.

May I refer you to Caliban's Daily Mash article

[gurnemanz]

And we feel superior to people who feel such uncertainty because we know, and they don't?

I was a teacher of languages all my working life and "knowing" things my students didn't was sort of a requirement of the job. I am quite liberal as far as language change is concerned and what is "correct". Languages develop through creative mutation, ie getting things "wrong". So rigorous adherence to the rules of descriptive grammar is not useful, any more than a casual, ignorant and sloppy attitude to it. I did find that students were generally grateful to appreciate what was going on with the way language works and let this guide them in their usage and aiming for more precise communication.

[vinteuil]

... rigorous adherence to the rules of descriptive grammar is not useful...

... still less useful wd be rigorous adherence to the rules of prescriptive grammar.

.

[Nick Armstrong]

I'm not sure this is the ideal place for this list

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12026653/The-51-most-commonly-misused-words-and-phrases-do-you-get-these-wrong.html

as it's not really a question of pedantry, but rather of just using words correctly.

However, I can't think of a better thread for it.

I don't think I have a problem with any of the list, save that it had never really dawned on me that 'torturous' is a word in its own right (I'd always assumed it was created by people who can't say 'tortuous' properly...)

[Lat-Literal]

I'm not sure this is the ideal place for this list

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12026653/The-51-most-commonly-misused-words-and-phrases-do-you-get-these-wrong.html

as it's not really a question of pedantry, but rather of just using words correctly.

However, I can't think of a better thread for it.

I don't think I have a problem with any of the list, save that it had never really dawned on me that 'torturous' is a word in its own right (I'd always assumed it was created by people who can't say 'tortuous' properly...)

"Literally - Correct: I didn't mean for you to literally run over here".

Surely - "I didn't mean literally for you to run over here" or "I didn't mean for you literally to run over here?"

There are a couple that were news to me. Half of them look like individual concerns, ie in his imagination.

Does anyone who would ever use the word "apprise" - few - need to know that it isn't the same as "appraise"?

[mercia]

#44 - on the very few occasions when I've had to say "stanch the bleeding" I think I've pronounced it staunch
on second thoughts perhaps it would still be pronounced staunch and I would spell it that way too