Pedants' Paradise

[Pulcinella]

I thought we'd agreed that referenda weren't a good idea. Both the decision to leave the EU and the decision to declare war on Germany on 4 August 1914 (both disastrous in my opinion) had considerable popular support.

I've often found that in major questions there are those who say 'Its simple: you do this, this, this. End of job. Done'. And there are those who say 'wait a minute; it's not as simple as you think. Let's consider the long-term ramifications.'

If all works of art were returned to their country of origin it would be a petty, small-minded world. If one could hear Beethoven only in Germany or Vienna, if one could see Monet only in France; and where would this leave Australia, or Portugal? This way of thinking diminishes art and a broader view of the world. I think it's more 'grown-up' to accept that British paintings can be in Chicago or Sydney , and that the Elgin Marbles belong to the British Museum and there's no good reason for changing that.

If we give in,there's no knowing where it will end. Already there are too many people sneering at Britain, though paradioxically, ,millions of people it seems want to come and live here. I think we need to be aware that what we do now may be comdemned by future generations. It's wrong to give away what we ought to hand on to them.

But did they belong to Elgin in the first place, is the question, surely? Or did he steal them?

[smittims]

I thought we'd agreed that referenda weren't a good idea. Both the decision to leave the EU and the decision to declare war on Germany on 4 August 1914 (both disastrous in my opinion) had considerable popular support.

I've often found that in major questions there are those who say 'Its simple: you do this, this, this. End of job. Done'. And there are those who say 'wait a minute; it's not as simple as you think. Let's consider the long-term ramifications.'

If all works of art were returned to their country of origin it would be a petty, small-minded world. If one could hear Beethoven only in Germany or Vienna, if one could see Monet only in France; and where would this leave Australia, or Portugal? This way of thinking diminishes art and a broader view of the world. I think it's more 'grown-up' to accept that British paintings can be in Chicago or Sydney , and that the Elgin Marbles belong to the British Museum and there's no good reason for changing that.

If we give in,there's no knowing where it will end. Already there are too many people sneering at Britain, though paradioxically, ,millions of people it seems want to come and live here. I think we need to be aware that what we do now may be comdemned by future generations. It's wrong to give away what we ought to hand on to them.

[vinteuil]

Your Rival Queens HH suggestion?

... ah, with 53% of the British fighting on the Greek side! (including Byron, no doubt)

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[french frank]

... my # 6899 of 14:35 today had the yougov poll of 2 December 2024 : those who think the marbles shd be returned to Greece now stand at 53%

Apologies I missed the fact that your link was also to a YouGov poll. My personal opinion is that the sculptures are Greek (in the same way as Stonehenge is British), so it is very understandable that the Greeks should want them brought 'home'. It's less understandable to me why we should even wish to keep them.

[AuntDaisy]

... my # 6899 of 14:35 today had the yougov poll of 2 December 2024 : those who think the marbles shd be returned to Greece now stand at 53%

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/entertai.../12/02/919af/2.

Your Rival Queens HH suggestion?

[vinteuil]

We are all entitled to our opinions. Interestingly, this time last year there was a YouGov poll:

Give them back to Greece 49%.
Keep them in Britain 15%.
Not bothered either way (good ol' Britain) 26%.
Dunno 10%.

... my # 6899 of 14:35 today had the yougov poll of 2 December 2024 : those who think the marbles shd be returned to Greece now stand at 53%

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/entertainment/survey-results/daily/2024/12/02/919af/2

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[Sir Velo]

The BBC news site also said that No.10 have denied that the subject was even on the agenda. I hope it wasn't. If we give them away we'll never get them back . I think the whole idea should be treated with utter contempt.

So if when the Roman hordes back in 43CE had made off with Stonehenge (or bits of it) you'd have been happy for it/them to remain on display in the Museo Archeologico Nazionale?

[french frank]

I think the whole idea should be treated with utter contempt.

We are all entitled to our opinions. Interestingly, this time last year there was a YouGov poll:

Give them back to Greece 49%.
Keep them in Britain 15%.
Not bothered either way (good ol' Britain) 26%.
Dunno 10%.

Other YouGov polls tell a similar story.

To be fair, the Daily Express has a new poll in light of the recent news. By a resounding majority Daily Express readers (?) - and me: I participated so that you don't have to - think we should not return them. I rest my case. Here one stands: one can do no other

[Padraig]

... not, I think, a question of "giving them away", rather "giving them back".


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Nice one, M v. It's really an argument about translation, suitable for pedantic discussion.

[vinteuil]

The BBC news site also said that No.10 have denied that the subject was even on the agenda. I hope it wasn't. If we give them away we'll never get them back . I think the whole idea should be treated with utter contempt.

... not, I think, a question of "giving them away", rather "giving them back".

I don't think "contempt" a useful emotion to deploy here

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/entertainment/survey-results/daily/2024/12/02/919af/2

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[Serial_Apologist]

The BBC news site also said that No.10 have denied that the subject was even on the agenda. I hope it wasn't. If we give them away we'll never get them back . I think the whole idea should be treated with utter contempt.

Why, smittims?

[smittims]

The BBC news site also said that No.10 have denied that the subject was even on the agenda. I hope it wasn't. If we give them away we'll never get them back . I think the whole idea should be treated with utter contempt.

[french frank]

" Parthenon Sculptures deal 'close', ex-Greek official says"

(it does not explain how, why, or when Professor Irene Stamatoudi ceased to be a Greek citizen... )

Also, I would pick up on the point that what the ex-Greek official actually said (having not been privy to any of the discussions) was that she believed ' "a deal is close" but was unsure if it was "close enough"'. So is there in fact any substance at all to this story about Professor Stamatoudi who may or may not have once been a Greek citizen and may or may not be one now? And if so, what is it?

[vinteuil]

.

... from the BBC News website -

" Parthenon Sculptures deal 'close', ex-Greek official says"

(it does not explain how, why, or when Professor Irene Stamatoudi ceased to be a Greek citizen... )

[Padraig]

Thank you, Padraig. The mystery remains as to why, historically, the terms masculine and feminine came to be used, and are still used, when they unequivocally (are you sure of that, ff?) refer to biological sex.

"In grammar, we use the concept of gender to describe how a word will behave in certain grammatical circumstances, as well as the effect(s) it might have on the words around it, particularly adjectives."

I confess I've become a bit confused in recent times as to exactly what the term 'gender' means ...

Perhaps native Irish speakers made up their own rules in the oral beginnings. Then came writing and scholars worked out why words were treated differently in terms of adjectives and pronouns and the article. On examination of the written findings they came across the concepts of broad and slender to explain some of the differences. Hence broad (male) and slender (female), which in turn became masculine and feminine, words borrowed from known English vocabulary, and thereby creating the ambiguity experienced nowadays. ??