Pedants' Paradise

[ahinton]

IOU's?

I wonder what such an acronym would be in Greek...

[french frank]

Just struck by today's order of service for Choral Vespers from Westminster Cathedral:

Psalms 46 (Deus noster refugium), 122 (Laetatus sum)


I googled 'noster refugium' and got 69,700 hits

And 'nostrum refugium' 55,400 hits

What am I missing here? jean? Perplexed

[ardcarp]

I have my copy of the Vulgate open and the 2nd verse of Psalm 45 (Psalms numbered differently for RCs) is DEUS NOSTER REFUGIUM et virtus. This suggests it should be translated as "Our God [is] a help and refuge' but I await Jean's response! Why verse 2 you ask. (Yes you did, I heard you ) Presumably because Verse 1 is the Antiphon.

[french frank]

"Our God [is] a help and refuge'

Yep. I wonder why the division of opinion, though. This is what young Mozart thought:



That seems to be a frequent translation - but I suppose it depends what the Latin is that is being translated.

[Rue Dubac]

Did anyone else hear this? Monday's episode of "Life in Squares", a letter from Vanessa Bell is being read in which she says "My slight disposal has quite cleared up," or words to that effect, presumably meaning "indisposition". How could anyone write this? How could it get past all the rest of those concerned with this production? I don't think I can put myself through the tedium of watching it again to check if my ears deceived me.

[jean]

I have my copy of the Vulgate open and the 2nd verse of Psalm 45 (Psalms numbered differently for RCs) is DEUS NOSTER REFUGIUM et virtus. This suggests it should be translated as "Our God [is] a help and refuge' but I await Jean's response!

I missed my cue!

It does depend on the Latin that's being translated. If your Vulgate is set out as mine is, it gives you three versions of the Psalms - and while the first here gives Deus noster refugium et virtus, the second has Deus, nostra spes et fortitududo and the third Deus est nobis refugium et robur. Either of the second two invites our refuge.

Why verse 2 you ask. (Yes you did, I heard you ) Presumably because Verse 1 is the Antiphon.

Not really - all the Psalms start with of an explanation of who (supposedly) wrote them and why. These headings form Verse 1 in the Vulgate, but in my KJV they have no verse number but are printed in (small) italics before the start of each psalm. They bear no relation to the Antiphons sung as part of the Roman liturgy.

(What we don't know, of course, is which translation is closest to the original. Hebrew probably doesn't have possessive adjectives, or something.)

.

[jean]

Did anyone else hear this? Monday's episode of "Life in Squares", a letter from Vanessa Bell is being read in which she says "My slight disposal has quite cleared up," or words to that effect, presumably meaning "indisposition". How could anyone write this? How could it get past all the rest of those concerned with this production?...

Sorry, I did watch, but I didn't catch that.

Is it just possible that she wrote it herself?

[french frank]

Did anyone else hear this? Monday's episode of "Life in Squares", a letter from Vanessa Bell is being read in which she says "My slight disposal has quite cleared up," or words to that effect, presumably meaning "indisposition". How could anyone write this? How could it get past all the rest of those concerned with this production? I don't think I can put myself through the tedium of watching it again to check if my ears deceived me.

Could have been a somewhat swallowed 'slight indisposal'? still not right, but a little more understandable on the analogy of dispose/disposal and the differing grammar of 'to dispose of' and 'to indispose/'be indisposed'.

Yes, Fowler 2 on disposal/disposition says: 'When doubt arises it is worth while to remember that -ition corresponds to dispose, and -al to dispose of.'

Though I did not hear the quotation in question, of course.

[jean]

Yes, Fowler 2 on disposal/disposition says: 'When doubt arises it is worth while to remember that -ition corresponds to dispose...'

Though it's not very clear what dispose actually means, is it?

Homo proponit, sed Deus disponit (Man proposes, God disposes).

I always remember how Italian students of mine, when invited to write job-application letters and offer themselves for interview, regularly wrote I am disposable... because disponibile means available.

[french frank]

Though it's not very clear what dispose actually means, is it?[/I]

Not in the Fowler quote, no.

I suppose he meant in the intransitive sense (as in the Latin quote from, it appears Thomas à Kempis), without 'of': "To make arrangements; to determine or control the course of affairs or events; to ordain, appoint."

[gurnemanz]

Not in the Fowler quote, no.

I suppose he meant in the intransitive sense (as in the Latin quote from, it appears Thomas à Kempis), without 'of': "To make arrangements; to determine or control the course of affairs or events; to ordain, appoint."

My Chambers Etymological Dictionary gives the first appearance in English as 1373 "disposen - have a natural tendency toward" as in the modern "natural disposition" and "ill-disposed" - not inclined towards. It seems to have been much used (as it still is) with the verb "to be" and the participle: "to be disposed". Middle English definitions here.

[vinteuil]

I always remember how Italian students of mine, when invited to write job-application letters and offer themselves for interview, regularly wrote I am disposable... because disponibile means available.

... I always liked the use in diplomatic language of the expression 'en disponibilité' for someone, ahem, asked to 'take extended leave'...

So, for example, Norman Douglas as a young man entered the diplomatic service, until a scandal in St Petersburg (this time with a woman... ) caused him to be placed ‘en disponibilité’.

[french frank]

It seems to have been much used (as it still is) with the verb "to be" and the participle: "to be disposed".

And "mostly predicative", as the OED says for 'to be indisposed', earliest example quoted in the meaning under discussion:

1623 P. Massinger Duke of Millaine iii. ii. sig. G4, If I am sought for, Say I am indispos'd.

[Serial_Apologist]

Local school to ban slang!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24522809

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It depends. I taught in a school in Derbyshire where the pupils (they weren't called "students" then) spoke to one another in quite a different language from the one they were expected to use in the classroom. That seemed to be a fair compromise. In East Yorkshire I noticed just how bad the teachers' grammar was - which is where any "improvement" needs to start.