Pedants' Paradise

[kernelbogey]

Now playing: Albert Moeschinger - Quntet on Swiss folksongs for wind, Op 53
- Freeview captions

[oddoneout]

Thanks for your views , oddoneout. I've completed my contribution to this debate now. I admit it went off-topic but other posters seemed content.

I made the mistake of breaking off partway through my reply or I would have realised that FF was trying to move the thread back on track. Like you, I've had my say now and am happy to leave it at that. As I've remarked before though, there are times when the digressions and diversions I find to be as worthwhile as the original topic.

[smittims]

Thanks for your views , oddoneout. I've completed my contribution to this debate now. I admit it went off-topic but other posters seemed content.

[french frank]

Should this conversation [Elgin Marbles] be removed to its own slot? It has rather taken over the pedants' corner and I feel we've moved from pedantry to opinion.

I was trying to move it back to pedantry with 'what is a majority?'. I suspect opinion on the sculptures may have been exhausted, in which case it won't need a new thread. Anyone who wants to continue chewing that particular bone, send me a PM.

[oddoneout]

Should this conversation be removed to its own slot? It has rather taken over the pedants' corner and I feel we've moved from pedantry to opinion.

When I first became aware of the keep/give back debate, a long time ago, a major part or the 'keep them here' argument was that Greece did not have suitable accommodation for them, and so their condition was at risk of deterioration if sent back. That is no longer the case, but a continuing difficulty is the circumstances of their acquisition and subsequent removal. I can't help thinking that what went on at that time was possibly quite normal, although might not have had universal approval; there would have been those I imagine that would have made the argument for such items to remain in their intended place, but didn't necessarily have sufficient influence.
Quite apart from the Elgin marbles there is the question of the items acquired on the Grand Tour, and similar excursions, and subsequently displayed in private homes and gardens. How many of those were legally transacted; they may have been bought in good faith but were those selling them doing so legally, or just meeting a demand by whatever means they could? Should those items be returned if it cannot be established beyond reasonable doubt that they were legitimate acquisitions?
I don't have answers, or even a strong opinion. Having worked in a museum for 15 years I would point out though that returning items wouldn't mean being left with empty spaces. There are hundreds of thousands of items that never get seen, let alone displayed, being stuck in vast(and expensive to maintain) stores. Yes, galleries would have to be re-arranged, the themes and nature of what would be on display might well be different - but it wouldn't be empty space. Might there also be significant items that could be considered as belonging to this country that come back as other countries review their collections and their entitlement to them?
In terms of the value of seeing 'the real thing' I think that becomes less and less relevant for the mass public, as virtual experience takes over from reality. Historical sites and artefacts are things to be viewed through a lens(and a forest of arms and phones) and ticked off as a social media FOMO* agenda item. From that perspective does it really matter which country the art is in? The expansion of collections digitisation makes much more material available to public view without having to travel . Those with a genuine interest , or a professional need to see 'in the flesh', will still do so, but those who just want to tick a box might be better served by donning a VR headset and having 'an experience'...

* fear of missing out

[french frank]

The Republicans will have 53 seats - a majority of 6.

Exactly. Not a 53-seat majority.

[LMcD]

But getting back to pedantry. The BBC reports that: 'Republicans are expected to have a 53-seat majority in the Senate'. Is that statistically possible? 76-24 would be a 52-seat majority, 77-23 a 54-seat majority.

The Republicans will have 53 seats - a majority of 6.

[french frank]

But getting back to pedantry. The BBC reports that: 'Republicans are expected to have a 53-seat majority in the Senate'. Is that statistically possible? 76-24 would be a 52-seat majority, 77-23 a 54-seat majority.

[french frank]

Hi, ff, with respect:

I didn't know Greece was an ally ! They've been pretty nasty to us for years.

They've been members of NATO since 1952!

Sneering and then affecting to admire is hypocrisy. People laugh at Britain for being weak, a soft touch. Its time we asserted our rights.

Not what I was saying, though. I doubt that there's much evidence (perhaps in the Daily Express?) that the same people who want to settle here are also those who sneer at Britain. There may well be some individuals who do just that. Somewhere ... I find no statistics on that.

Those who can afford, and who can stand the awful climate (48 degrees C?), not to mentio nthe smell, can visit Athens, Not I , not milions of Brits who have the right to see them in the BM now. The last I heard, they belong to the BM who aren't allowed to give them away . That really should be the end of it.

When were you last there? Temperature in Athens at the moment is 14C. I've only been there twice, and in high summer it was hot. I didn't notice the smell. The question of 'giving them away' is not - as I understand - the issue under discussion by the Museum: it's about a loan in exchange for other Greek artefacts.

And Greece, including Athens, is a popular destination for UK tourists, so it takes all sorts!

[Master Jacques]

Bit cynical there, MJ ? It would also make space to exhibit stuff that has never before been on display. But the caffs in these places are a bit pricey, unnecessarily so in my view, and for my stingy tastes.

Even if they don't utilise that space directly for a new café, the BM is going the same way as the V&A in dedicating less space to exhibits, razzing up fewer exhibits in the space they're allotted, and opening extra food and drink outlets "by public demand". The people would rather sit down in swanky cafes than gawp at bronze-age odds and sods. (And pricey these caffs certainly are!)

[french frank]

You're all missing the point. By handing them back to Greece, where they won't be in situ (too polluted) but stuck in a very similar hole to the one they're in now, the British Museum makes space for yet another money-making café, from which to serve quiche to tourists.

Bit cynical there, MJ ? It would also make space to exhibit stuff that has never before been on display. But the caffs in these places are a bit pricey, unnecessarily so in my view, and for my stingy tastes.

[smittims]

Hi, ff, with respect:

I didn't know Greece was an ally ! They've been pretty nasty to us for years.

Sneering and then affecting to admire is hypocrisy. People laugh at Britain for being weak, a soft touch. Its time we asserted our rights.

Those who can afford, and who can stand the awful climate (48 degrees C?), not to mentio nthe smell, can visit Athens, Not I , not milions of Brits who have the right to see them in the BM now. The last I heard, they belong to the BM who aren't allowed to give them away . That really should be the end of it.

[Master Jacques]

You're all missing the point. By handing them back to Greece, where they won't be in situ (too polluted) but stuck in a very similar hole to the one they're in now, the British Museum makes space for yet another money-making café, from which to serve quiche to tourists.

[french frank]

IIf we give in,there's no knowing where it will end.

In a post-war era (at least for us), talking of 'giving in' to an ally sounds a little belligerent perhaps?

Already there are too many people sneering at Britain, though paradioxically, ,millions of people it seems want to come and live here.

Two unconnected factors. Some people may well sneer at me for one reason and other (or the same) people admire me for another reason. That's wouldn't be a paradox: it may well be perfectly logical.

I think we need to be aware that what we do now may be comdemned by future generations. It's wrong to give away what we ought to hand on to them.

Should we have given away parts of the British Empire because those parts wanted their independence from Britain? Times and attitudes change. We shouldn't change the status quo on anything, perhaps, because future generations may (possibly) condemn us for doing so? Or they may wonder why it took us so long to do the 'right thing'. British people will still be able to visit and admire the sculptures. My guess is that the minority of British people who would be interested in seeing them would also be willing to pay a visit to Greece and see other works of art.

[smittims]

I don't think there's any point in arguing about who originally owned them . Didn't someone once say Property is theft? You just get bogged down in futile qubbling aboiut the fact that the Greeks didn't care about them and blew up the building when the Turks occupied it, and left the sculptures lying about .

If you go back far enough we could all claim compensation from the government of Normandy for what happened in 1066. But if you want my view, Elgin bought them. And he wasn't properly reimbursed by the British Goverment for the expense he went to to get them here.

I thint the urge to send them back is 'presentism' , a fashionable fad to be seen to be politically-correct. I think we need to be more mature than that.