Pedants' Paradise

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Box set or boxed set? Also to do with getting the tongue round three adjacent consonants here "xds". In such cases the middle one will tend to vanish as in "postman" "Christmas" "waistcoat" "waltz" "postpone" "mustn't" etc

Do they really "vanish", gurne? Yes, with "mustn't" (more like "mus'n't") but whilst I don't emphasize the "t" in "Christmas", I don't pronounce it "Chrissmass", either - and the "t" in the way I say "postman" and (particularly) "waltz" is clearly audible. Same with "boxed set" (as opposed to "bockset"). Is this a regional thing?

[gurnemanz]

Do they really "vanish", gurne? Yes, with "mustn't" (more like "mus'n't") but whilst I don't emphasize the "t" in "Christmas", I don't pronounce it "Chrissmass", either - and the "t" in the way I say "postman" and (particularly) "waltz" is clearly audible. Same with "boxed set" (as opposed to "bockset"). Is this a regional thing?

I still think most people do this elision most of the time and it's not an indication of slovenly speech but simply a matter of convenience or pragmatism when talking fast in a colloquial or informal context. You are to be applauded on very precise diction, but if I were in your presence talking to you I would be sneakily listening to see if I could catch you out. Here's an article which starts with the example "next door"

[Pabmusic]

I still think most people do this elision most of the time and it's not an indication of slovenly speech but simply a matter of convenience or pragmatism when talking fast in a colloquial or informal context. You are to be applauded on very precise diction, but if I were in your presence talking to you I would be sneakily listening to see if I could catch you out. Here's an article which starts with the example "next door"

I'm with you, Gurnemanz. It's more about comfort than anything else. I have tried to pronounce the aspirate W since I was a teenager (at the latest) but I know it's an affectation. If I just wanted to be comfortable, I wouldn't.

[jean]

I'm with you, Gurnemanz. It's more about comfort than anything else.

It may be a matter of comfort in the examples Gurnemanz gives, but I don't think thet's the only explanation for the boxed/box set doublet.

The adjectival use of a past participle retains the sense of something having been done to something else - but is it really important that the set has been put into a box by someone? Isn't it just a box with a set of things inside it?

What about terraced/terrace house? Did someone take my house and put it in a terrace? Or is it best considered as a part of that larger entity from the beginning?

And what about duct/duck tape? (Guess which came first, before you look!)

[jean]

...I have tried to pronounce the aspirate W since I was a teenager (at the latest) but I know it's an affectation. If I just wanted to be comfortable, I wouldn't.

But nobody is expecting you to!

However, for those to whom the aspiration comes naturally, it isn't an affectation.

[jean]

...Here's an article which starts with the example "next door"

The problem with that article is that it doesn't recognise that there are (at least) two ways of pronouncing t short of omitting it altogether.

You start the sound with your tongue against the alveolar ridge and then, especially if you're at the beginning of a word, you let the air escape before you go on to the next letter. If the next letter is a vowel, you have to do that.

However, if you're going on to another consonant, you may just discreetly move your tongue away from your teeth without the plosive bit at the end.

[JFLL]

I still think most people do this elision most of the time and it's not an indication of slovenly speech but simply a matter of convenience or pragmatism when talking fast in a colloquial or informal context.

I like the term 'allegro speech' used by linguists, but I don't know whether they also talk about 'adagio speech' or 'andante speech'. A certain R3 presenter is guilty in my eyes of 'prestissimo speech', not to mention overdoing the rubato.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

In Lancashire, people pronounce -ing exactly as spelt, that final G being clearly audible but elsewhere the -ng becomes a new nasal consonant.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

You are to be applauded on very precise diction, but if I were in your presence talking to you I would be sneakily listening to see if I could catch you out.

So have I been since your last post!

It's not really "precise diction" - as I say I don't emphasize the "t", it's more that I pronounce "Christmas" differently from "Chrissmass" (the tip of my tongue goes to a different position) - the "t" isn't exactly heard, but it doesn't "vanish", either.

Here's an article which starts with the example "next door"

An interesting article, thank you - but, again, in many of these words (mostly, left me, left-field, kept calm, abruptly) you could hear the "t" when I spoke them. (Not "mustn't" - and I don't think I've ever used the word "disruptment" in my life!)

And, as Alpie mentions, my Lancastrian "g" is ready for action at "endings" - I began teaching in London, and this was something the kids found hilarious!

("Are we doing any singing today, Sir?"
"Or are we going to be playing instruments?"
"I just hope we're not going to be writing a prohject!"

Oh, I've just remembered - I pronounce the "t" in "b*st**ds", too!

[Pabmusic]

...What about terraced/terrace house? Did someone take my house and put it in a terrace? Or is it best considered as a part of that larger entity from the beginning?

And what about duct/duck tape? (Guess which came first, before you look!)

...

However, for those to whom the aspiration comes naturally, it isn't an affectation.

Interesting. I've always said 'terraced house' - never heard it otherwise. As for the tape - surely it's 'duck' because it was originally made from the heavy cotton cloth called duck or ducking (all those Edwardians in duck trousers on their yachts).

As for the aspirate W, it does come easily to me - my accent easily accommodates lisps and aspirates. I have nevertheless consciously tried to preserve it, which is surely a little affected.

[jean]

Interesting. I've always said 'terraced house' - never heard it otherwise.

You hear both. But does terraced house make sense? A single house can't be terraced.

As for the tape - surely it's 'duck' because it was originally made from the heavy cotton cloth called duck or ducking

Yes. But if you didn't know that, you might well think it was an example of what we're looking at here.

My point is that there are reasons for box set other than mere ease of pronunciation.

As for the aspirate W, it does come easily to me - my accent easily accommodates lisps and aspirates. I have nevertheless consciously tried to preserve it, which is surely a little affected.

Why would it have been likely to go missing, any more than any other feature of your accent?

[amateur51]

Has anyone else noted Pres.Obama's persistent interdental whistle on the letter 's'?

It's a cracker

[jean]

I am probably the only person in the world who didn't know this:

Cairo was the code name for the development project that would eventually lead to the Microsoft operating system XP. XP are the Greek letters chi rho. Just before the release, MS said XP was short for "experience", however early documents that I have seen state the Chi Rho origin.

(I expect the omega stands for Windows.)

.

[Pabmusic]

...My point is that there are reasons for box set other than mere ease of pronunciation...

And I agree with you.

Why would it have been likely to go missing, any more than any other feature of your accent?

General 'dumbing down' I suppose, where aspirate Ws were seen as 'posh'.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I tend not to aspirate my "wh" words, but that's because I'm lazy.