Pedants' Paradise

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  • ferneyhoughgeliebte
    Gone fishin'
    • Sep 2011
    • 30163

    Originally posted by jean View Post
    As to synonymous - originally it referred to a word that meant the same as another one, and by extension a whole phrase; that we can't think of a satisfactory equivalent for what is meant here shows there's clearly a semantic gap, and synonymous might as well fill it!
    "Epitome"?


    (Oh no - that comes after Christmas, doesn't it? )
    [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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    • jean
      Late member
      • Nov 2010
      • 7100

      Originally posted by subcontrabass View Post
      On that basis the tune used for "Good King Václav" IS a carol, with original words for spring time.
      Its for springtime, certainly - but do you know the steps?

      Comment

      • french frank
        Administrator/Moderator
        • Feb 2007
        • 30537

        Originally posted by vinteuil View Post
        No two separate words are perfectly synonymous; there will always be differences of denotation and connotation.

        Therefore it is possible for a word to be more or less synonymous with its 'pair'.
        But the usage is different here. It was not two separate words, and was a figurative use anyway: The carol 'I saw three ships' doesn't mean exactly the same, roughly the same or somewhat the same as the word 'Christmas'. It evokes Christmas, is possibly redolent of Christmastide or it makes one think, 'Ah, Christmas must be here again.'

        The nearest definition in the OED is: "In extended sense, said of words or phrases which denote things that imply one another". You might say that 'I saw three ships' implies Christmas; but does 'Christmas' imply 'I saw three ships' in any way that could be considered equivalence?

        I don't think 'Christmas carol' can (now) be limited to music or a song for dancing, since there are modern carols which were never danced to.
        It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

        Comment

        • vinteuil
          Full Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 12986

          Originally posted by french frank View Post
          But the usage is different here.
          ... o yes, I quite agree that the usage here is slovenly, and I wdn't defend it.

          My queries above [ #1914, #1919 ] were more in response to what I thought was your original query - viz, was the form "most synonymous" tenable; in the same way that some object to forms such as "most unique". I think one can argue that there are cases where "most synonymous" is valid.

          Your objection to "(this carol) is most synonymous with Christmas" is the same as the objection I wd have to phrases like "Mince pies mean Christmas" - or "Christmas means mince pies".

          Comment

          • jean
            Late member
            • Nov 2010
            • 7100

            Originally posted by vinteuil View Post
            ..."Mince pies mean Christmas"...
            If only they did - but they've been on sale for months!

            Comment

            • jean
              Late member
              • Nov 2010
              • 7100

              Originally posted by french frank View Post
              I don't think 'Christmas carol' can (now) be limited to music or a song for dancing, since there are modern carols which were never danced to.
              I know. But if you can't be pedantic here, where can you?

              Comment

              • french frank
                Administrator/Moderator
                • Feb 2007
                • 30537

                Originally posted by vinteuil View Post
                My queries above [ #1914, #1919 ] were more in response to what I thought was your original query - viz, was the form "most synonymous" tenable; in the same way that some object to forms such as "most unique". I think one can argue that there are cases where "most synonymous" is valid.
                Score draw, then My mind was engaged on the specific example, but I do see your point. I still would dislike any interpretation that didn't imply an exactness, a degree of equivalence that offered an unmeasurable opportunity to differentiate between more and less. In other words, if the difference were quantifiable in such a way, then synonymity would be lost.
                It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                Comment

                • french frank
                  Administrator/Moderator
                  • Feb 2007
                  • 30537

                  Originally posted by jean View Post
                  But if you can't be pedantic here, where can you?
                  Well, to be pedantic, I think there are a number of alternatives on the internet, often called Pedants' Corner. But I'm only answering the question, not requesting anyone to move elsewhere.
                  It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                  Comment

                  • doversoul1
                    Ex Member
                    • Dec 2010
                    • 7132

                    Requiae

                    Tomorrow’s CD Review:

                    11.20am New Releases: Requiae
                    With Andrew McGregor. Including Building a Library: Bach: Orchestral Suites, BWV1066-1069.


                    Maybe I should post this on the Pedants’ Paradise but is requiae plural of requiem?

                    Comment

                    • Roehre

                      Originally posted by doversoul View Post
                      Tomorrow’s CD Review:

                      11.20am New Releases: Requiae
                      With Andrew McGregor. Including Building a Library: Bach: Orchestral Suites, BWV1066-1069.


                      Maybe I should post this on the Pedants’ Paradise but is requiae plural of requiem?
                      No.
                      English plural of Requiem is Requiems, the latin one Missae da Requiem

                      Comment

                      • Eine Alpensinfonie
                        Host
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 20576

                        Talking of Christmas Carols, consider ",Past Three A Clock" ( not "O' Clock").

                        Comment

                        • jean
                          Late member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 7100

                          No!

                          Comment

                          • doversoul1
                            Ex Member
                            • Dec 2010
                            • 7132

                            Originally posted by Roehre View Post
                            No.
                            English plural of Requiem is Requiems, the latin one Missae da Requiem
                            Thank you. So what is/are Requiae?

                            Comment

                            • richardfinegold
                              Full Member
                              • Sep 2012
                              • 7767

                              Originally posted by doversoul View Post
                              Tomorrow’s CD Review:

                              11.20am New Releases: Requiae
                              With Andrew McGregor. Including Building a Library: Bach: Orchestral Suites, BWV1066-1069.


                              Maybe I should post this on the Pedants’ Paradise but is requiae plural of requiem?

                              I'm dying to find out.

                              Comment

                              • ardcarp
                                Late member
                                • Nov 2010
                                • 11102

                                ...sounds like pretentiousness on the part of whoever posts up the blurb on the website. Dona eis requiem surely translates as 'give them peace', so if 'requiem' is a noun meaning 'peace', you surely can't have 'peaces'. If a Requiem has come to mean a piece of music honouring [?] the dead, then in English, Requiems must surely be the plural. Come on, Jean, expand on your 'No!'

                                I think I should have used the word 'rest' rather than 'peace'.
                                Last edited by ardcarp; 06-12-14, 09:07. Reason: correcting myself

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